What is the Fighting Game Community REALLY saying?
Brian_F
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I wanted to talk about loaded FGC language and the implicit bias we introduce when we speak this way. “Cheap”, “broken”, “fair”. What are we really saying?
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10.04.2022
Yeah, what the fuck does fuzzy mean? I only know what it means in SFV – instant overhead on a crouching character whose hurtbox is as if they were standing.
But other than that, it feels like everybody has their own definition of the term.
Calling some one a "Try Hard" is a good one: Just because someone's fighting style seems more "frantic" because they wont sit still long enough for you to set-up this epic combo you've been labbing AAALLLLL day…..
*sigh Damn Ibuki mains.
In my mind, "honest" just refers to a character who does have any significant strengths or weaknesses. Completely middle of the road, vanilla type characters who are usually the "default" in a fighting game.
it smells like wet fur in here
When i say “cheap” i mean you’re cheap. Get you PC fixed!!! Jk, love your content. Your channel is really underrated.
Over here "honest" usually meant "the game's most basic Rock Paper Scissors that you can think of" which depends on the person means different things. And a character is said to be honest when the character gets most of it's mileage from this rock paper scissors, where a player is honest if his playstyle is mainly the rock paper scissor that the speaker thinks of.
To use some of them loaded words, there is also a mixup when pro players call the opponent's character cheap while calling their character honest and a real "street fighter" character.
Well farmed content you got there Brian 🙂
I think Honest just means the character is solid (at best) but they lack the cheap options that allow them to run away with sets. Essentially you had to either work hard for your win or you had to be so into your opponent's head that you knew what they were going to eat after the tournament.
You can't tell you you look at Kaz's play and sometimes question
"….How tf does he keep getting to top 8??" as he mashes on like 3 wakeups in a row. For them trying to block DP.
And then 5 second later runs someone down into the corner just press buttons at them perfectly.
Honest means no gimmicks 100% neutral.
To me honest always meant the characters moves did what they look like they do, as oppose to characters whose strengths are less obvious. An example would be Bryans b+1 in Tekken. Its linear, slow, launches on CH and is plus on block. It looks like all of those things, therefore the nature of the move and the means of escaping it are intuitive (even if difficult in practice). Something less honest would be Akuma d+3 which looks like a low poke, but is in reality a much more complicated move that can be treated as a very high damage high crushing fast low launcher with many options (given meter).
For the record both Bryan and Akuma have honest and dishonest traits, but I think most people consider T7 Akuma or King less honest than someone like Kazumi, Bryan, or Shaheen because its more immediately clear how the characters work, even at the cost of visual flair at times (kings moves look so dope).
what is this neutral that you speak off?
i play anime fighters and that term is foreign to me
🤣🤣
Cheap… a situation were the opponent has 0 to little options to escape or to retaliate. typically unreactable situations.
Ask a smash player what ‘metagame’ means, I dare you.
My favorite phrase is any variation of “Press 1 if you got hit” because I 100% get hit everytime
I love that Ivan Ooze video. I found that vid a long time ago, and it always stuck with me as a point of comparison when the topic of broken characters came up.
I think this is more "misconceptions" and "hidden meanings" than "loaded language"
I like "schooling"
It means that one player wins the game but a lot is learned
When you do a quick google search on the difference between meaty and oki, everybody will tell you they're different but then they'll give the same definition twice, just worded differently. It took me a decent amount of searching to figure out that meaty is referring to how active a move is, and oki is referring to hitting them on their wake up specifically.
Honest isn’t really applicable to games like SF, in my experience it’s mostly an anime fighter term. It’s like when you use a character/tactic that’s skillful, generally lacks “tricks” (like IOH or tricky movement). Characters that are honest are the kind where there’s never really an excuse to how you lost. You didn’t get caught by an unblockable, you weren’t spammed out, it appears to be a more “honest” or classy duel.
OOOO DEEEEEEEEEEEEE
The most meaningful fighting game advice I've heard is "if your opponent is spamming and it's working, you're spamming a mistake"
Hi Twitch chat
Screw neutral, I wanna just go ham and get the match over with.
hey he watches scott the woz
You got me, I subscribed.
Honest to me has connotations of fundamental gameplay. Sparse usage of "tricks" or newer, more experimental game mechanics.
Another really good example is when people use the phrase “At the top level of play” when referring to how a character/move/situation applies to a game’s meta. A lot of the time it’s genuinely applicable, but it can also come off as elitist, almost like “if you aren’t skilled enough, you don’t have the right to complain/have an opinion”
@9:45 for Emo Waifu Girlfriend
spamming has become an obsolete word and its not valid anymore to say someone is spamming cuz fighting games now have multiple ways for you as a player to deal with someone "spamming" i feel while the word spam has become invalid, the word mash has increased in value because saying someone is mashing is valid if they are throwing dragon punches full screen and jumping and attacking randomly while in a block string. But i feel this word can get overused and used as a scape goat (a excuse that justifies why your playing bad)
Peanut gallery = his entire chat
The LTG translator
Always felt that honest characters were those with little mixups
Feels to me like the difference between something being cheap or honest is how visibly apparent the answer to a move is, regardless of if the move is especially strong or not.
Spelunky HD music, LETS GO!
No one ever says what “OD” is. I hear it all the time.
I think fundamentals is things that are common across fighting games and not specific. Like V trigger 1 on Cammy isn't a fundamental, but let's say knowing how to anti air, knowing how to poke are fundamentals. I think cheap is just used as a term for things that are harder to deal with than to execute as a lower ranked player. I'm not a great player, so when I say let's say, M Bison's teleporting side switch is cheap, I mean I am not at a level where I am good enough to handle this easily, while the Bison who I am playing against is at the level where he can execute said move. To contrast that, let's look at a move like Cammy's dive kick (at my level) it is not easy to always get a + on a dive kick, or to even execute the dive kick with 100% accuracy, while to deal with it you just hold back to block, there isn't any side switching, cross ups, air grabs, it just comes out.
“Grandoise”
Not
Grandiose
Sm4sh Bayonetta
Or Broken
Brawl meta knight
"online playstyle" probably doesn't mean much nowadays…
This was quite informative to the stuff I don’t know about FGC lingo
But some words I’ve known when I played Yugioh back in the day
i think youtube clickbait has contributed to the overuse of “broken”. Any time new characters come out in a game or patches drop, somebody’s gonna post “X new character TOTALLY BROKEN INSTANT TOP TIER” and get lots of clicks
I like that you used an example for the God tier thing.
In general I just wish people used examples way more. That's what makes Core-A gaming's videos so great – he let's his evidence do most of the talking.
Cheap means easy to execute but hard to react to. Usually a move that can be easily mashed out or mixed into pressure
Cheap is something people say when their bitching. Honest and fair seem pretty meaningless. People complain Ken is cheap, and he's like the most basic character.
The other thing I don't like about the term 50/50, even when it's truly referring to exactly 2 options, is it loses the nuances of the two options. Often times one of the options is better, so it's actually more like an 80/20. Usually the situation tilts the value of each option too, e.g., if one option does a lot of stun, when you're high stun it tilts the situation all the way to being like a 90/10. If one option builds more meter and puts a supercancel on the table, while the other doesn't, now the situation is getting pretty hard to read at a glance and you've really gotta be experienced to think of it all in time. It's pretty rare that there's really no mindgames on the table and it's just a coin flip.
alright brian, i'll bite
But what is oki, fierce, meaty, or tapping?
The "Cheap" argument basically falls as it does with all value judgements, as Brian said, a matter of perspective. If I sell shoes and was able to produce them below market value I may get a compliment that I saved the company money by producing them more cheaply, like Brian's first example of a fellow competitive player congratulating you for an effective maneuver. But that situation doesn't usually get publicized beyond the company or match. The situation that occurs more often is when a buyer feels that the quality of a product has been compromised, or that the pro player is taking shortcuts that only he knows to win, and everyone wants to tell others about how they were ripped off, so cheap has acquired a mostly negative connotation…
to me, fundamentals are the building block skills that transfer over to every other fighting game, and the skills that you build a playstyle off of. No matter what game, character, or playstyle you go with, you'll always have some amount of anti airs, hit confirms, whiff punishing, etc. When people build a game plan using EXCLUSIVELY those skills, that's what I would call a "fundamental playstyle".