The problem with modern fighting games -

The problem with modern fighting games

Panda | Kizzie Kay
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PG Kizzie Kay gives his thoughts on issues around the latest generation of fighting games (Guilty Gear Xrd, Street Fighter V, Tekken 7, etc.) and how they’re affecting how players react to changes to developers do that are meant to make their games easier. Plus, some more Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2 online matches.

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  1. MK11 fujin? DBFZ Ginyu? Also ain't Eliza dummy good?

  2. Just want to point out that a lot of people has been pointing at tekken 7 and undernight when those games has been out since all of these issues im talking about started happening. Tekken 7 was 2015 and uni was like 2011

  3. I can't stand mortal kombat jerky animation weird look and dial a combo is really fing annoying…

    And i cant stand rainbow hair flower head tekken crap either…

    But it is better… Unfortunately…

  4. We wouldnt be in this situation if yall would have just PLAYED KOF13

  5. Still waiting for my man potomkin to be top tier

  6. What about princess peach and ice climbers in smash bros ultimate

  7. It's a interesting problem. I think the best way to handle it would be to make an execution character that is very very hard to execute consistently, like multiple frame perfect links or something like that but still have the character be able to perform simpler tasks for less rewards.

  8. I totally agree with you! Nobody really talks about this. I mean LTG talks about how hard you have to work with some characters, only to have them go RYU/KEN wake up sweep V-trigger and defeat you. I’ve been playing fighting games for around 20 years…and then some final fantasy player, comes along and bodies me mashing buttons into wake up super/ V-trigger! I suddenly began to realize, it wasn’t “necessarily” me. The game itself was formatted for beginners and scrub players. I’m talking about SFV the most, because it’s far too much in favor of button mashing over skilled players. I’m not meaning to be offensive but…when I saw so many platinum players who were FEMALE! I kinda got me thinking even more, about how accessible SFV is. I DO see this in the modern guilty gear games…also in mortal kombat 11. You also have people preaching about “you don’t know frame data” 😂 Frame data was actually created for people who didn’t know what the hell they were doing, didn’t know correct spacing and were using math to figure it out…kinda like losing in poker…the counting cards (cheating) in order to win or get the upper hand. I grew up in the 90’s arcades. I naturally knew, where to stand, when to throw, and which move or poke would counter another! No frame data! Just experienced play and know how. Sorry for the essay!

  9. Thank god someone fucking gets it!!!

  10. Imagine having great execution but your defense is garbage. That sums up most of yall.

  11. "I'm but a simple man, bro"

    That cracks me up and I dont know why

  12. players are willing to sacrifice their fingers and sanity to pull off 7k dmg yuzu combos in uniclr

  13. Ummm bro…You say that execution-style characters don't get their due? Clearly, you've never heard of SNK.
    Almost every character there requires an above average to insane level of execution to pull off.

  14. No one can really say what the balancing state of a lot of these games actually are due to offline tournaments being cancelled but IMO Menat is in a good spot. She doesn't need to be top 10 just cause she's hard to use and the tiers in SFV are pretty compressed as is. There's only like a handful of characters in that game that are clearly in need of help. She's not super popular but that just kind of comes with the archetype. Sako only even switched cause Seth came out and is like a top 2 character, and he's using VT2 because he is being rewarded with that trigger for his excellent execution. That's not really an issue with Menat as a character imo and guys like Zenith are still doing great work with her. This doesn't even touch on characters like Guile, Urien and Chun who may be simple to play at 1st glance but require really strong execution and awareness to get the most out of and arguably are all top 10 chars. Execution is still rewarded imo, its just more subtle and not huge flashy ToDs.

    I see this a lot as a critique of modern fighters and like…IDK what should the reward be? Like if you're good at executing in a game like Marvel 2 or Karnov's you just kill the opponent outright or dizzy and redizzy to death in a single touch. I'm personally happy that modern FGs aren't like this because it's not fun to be hit by. IDC how much lab time you put in to make the game a 1 player game, it still means I don't get to play when you touch me and its not fun. I like you and your stuff and I'm not trying to antagonize here but if that's the kind of reward you want for labtime I'm not about it. If people like that kind of stuff that's great and I'm glad those older games still exist for them but I def don't want to see that kind of stuff return in newer games.

  15. Mortal Kombat 3 is the only fighting game that got everything the closest to what a fighting game should be.

    Guilty, street fighter, tekken etc have corny ass characters with circus show mechanics. It doesn't feel like your in a fight throwing hands it feels like your jus trying to counter the game mechanics.

    Its hard to fully explain but I've played them all and mortal kombat 3 is literally the only game that got it right.

  16. zoning is the same thing. dang and nash being the worst sfv characters is so lame. “sim good” is a meme despite winning 0 tournaments in 5 years

  17. as someone who always plays the funny characters, I'm used to having bad characters. its a known rule that funny characters can't be good.


    so you want a win button if you can do a 1 frame link?

  19. Eh. Execution being rewarded too heavily had been something that adds frustration to players and devs.

    It's really hard to design a character that is rewarding outside base mechanics because the design intent already snowballs the game. The more items in the decision tree, the more a dev could get wrong and just make a mad busted char.

  20. Execution is out and accessibility is IN. I have been playing fighters since 1988 and you know what, I'am tired of homework and crazy ninja finger skills. Gimme, gimme, gimme, accessibility!!!!! I'am too old for this S**T!?!

  21. Execution is the easy thing because it is just muscle memory. The hard thing is playing someone like Yoshimitsu (a character with easy execution, for the most part) and creating a workable gameplan vs opponent who knows the matchup. Improving your strategy is harder than grinding muscle memory. And with character like Kazuya their gameplan is so simple, dumb and effective (just a powerful 50/50 in your face) that you kinda skip the whole strategy dimension and replace it with execution grind. There are no moments with Kazuya where you are like "oh, that was a very clever hellsweep – who could have seen it coming?!".

  22. I reckon BBCF strikes a good balance. Many of the game's best characters are fairly execution-heavy.

  23. BBCF did it right, but idk if that counts as new

  24. If you played Pokken, both SM2, Aegis were varying execution characters actually good

  25. You are wrong. There is a game that has rewarded the use of harder characters. Soulcalibur 6.
    Harder characters from the previous titles have been updated and made better and worth investing time into.
    The game is not prefect by any means but the devs have been fighting to make this game good.
    Its one of the reasons I tell people to support that game. There's good passion in there. SC6 just needs the rollback netcode.

  26. Kizzie: there is no high execution character who is actually good
    Me: Seth uniclr fight me

  27. You know what's funny though? Smash brothers ultimate actually rewards technical characters lol

  28. Steve,Devil Jin and akuma are good and they take execution.

  29. Y'all remember Persona 4 Arena Ultimax? That game had a good difficulty balance. Can we get more games like it?

  30. As far as I know most people place menat pretty well in tier lists.

  31. I've mained C. Viper in 3 different games . I have no sympathy for people that struggle with execution.

  32. there are a few rumors that SFVI will have one button special movies like in Smash

  33. I think most characters should have basic accessible combos with more execution heavy stuff in their movelist. Make the easier stuff balanced with more openings and weaknesses than the execution heavy stuff.

  34. My problem is finally finding something interesting just to discover that it isn't even worth it. I'll suffer all day as long as I can still have fun but once the devs are basically telling you to go fuck yourself because the character is barely designed for their game or every boring option is the only option until they patch it up for another flavor of the month, they can keep it.

  35. It's ironic that you bring up Tekken since the top characters, such as Akuma, Geese, and Bryan are top tier, with Akuma easily being in top 3 for the entirety of the game's life cycle. Eliza is the exception in the meter department but I think it's different with her due to her movelist and exclusivity due to being a "difficult to justify buying" DLC character but even she, with the new changes, has been buffed enough to be decent. Akuma in SFV is another example, most people passed him off due to his low HP and higher execution until Tokido and others brought his potential to light.

    But I do have to agree that modern fighting games don't know what they're doing and that lack of awareness is what is causing their downfall: lack of basic QoL, netcode, training mode options/features, gameplay content, etc. Tekken's recent DLC characters, i.e. Leeroy and Fahkumram is another proof of the fighting game disillusion from developers and don't even get started on SFV.

  36. Lower the skill floor not the skill ceiling, people who put the work into a harder character to play should be rewarded, people who want to play easier execution characters just have to put more work into other aspects of the game and then they can compete the same, if the game itself is balanced well etc.

  37. I really enjoy Guilty Gear Rev2 and Tekken 7 a lot, they’re really fun games with great depth. I’ve been playing fighting games since Street Fighter 2 but I never bothered to learn anything serious until the SFIV generation of fighting games.

    SFV killed me, couldn’t play it. Didn’t feel right. So I switched to Tekken 7 and Guilty Gear, these games satisfy me on a spiritual level, I hope these devs don’t make the same mistakes that Capcom have with 5 (though idk wtf is going on with bamco right now…)

  38. I wonder if there is a game where all characters use a level up mechanic like Adult Gohan in dbfz? They all start the match simple but as the match goes on more options open up. I wonder if a game centered on that would work?

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