The eternal question in fighting games. -

The eternal question in fighting games.

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#lordknight #DBFZ #GuiltyGear

No matter what the year is, there is one fighting game question that is forever – why are new games so “scrubby”?

We look 10 years ago for ASW’s answer.

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  1. If all these games are getting easier, why am I not a 10-time Evo champion?

  2. I feel like people are quick to forget that a lot of this "easy mode" shit that they hate also allows them to do absolutely nutty shit that wouldn't be possible otherwise. The game usually ends up funner for everyone at every level

  3. A lot of the "new game bad" mentality comes from the basic human fear of things changing. Unfortunately, this often results in lots of old players complaining about changes for shallow reasons. There are often times very legitimate concerns hidden among these complaints that get ignored by people who are very hype for the new game. I do think a general trend towards accessibility is a good thing, but its implementation often shaves the skill ceiling. As many before me have said, the best games have a low skill floor but a high skill ceiling. They have lots of room for expression and player creativity, through avenues such as movement, character-moveset-variety, and lots of freedom within the game system itself. I think a lot of newer games are especially hindered in the moveset category, with games like GBVS having very similar combo routes, similar damage, and similar setups across the whole roster. Games like SFV and DBFZ intentionally removed options from the strong "fun" characters (RIP launch Cell), and had fairly barebones systems, rather than trying to make the whole cast fun and create a system that encouraged creativity. However, both of these games seem to have strayed from that balance/game design philosophy, with newer DBFZ characters having more and more unique movesets, as well as selectable assists, and with SFV introducing all sorts of new system mechanics to the game. As a result, both SFV and DBFZ have become very enjoyable games for me to watch and experience. While I'm not heavily invested into either, my interest in them has grown a lot after I ignored them both for years. I also still think both of these games have the same skill floor as they did at launch. When the options available to the player increased, the skill ceiling also increased.

    I'd also like to talk about Strive, since the entire gear community is divided on this. I think a large part of the reaction to this game has to do with the aforementioned fear of change. I remember the timespan from 2017 to 2019 when all of my Xrd-playing friends would stay up late, watching top 8s at all sorts of events in hope of news. I watched them slowly become jaded when they realized we probably wouldn't get another update to REV2. I was also somewhat dissatisfied with the state of REV2, and began to move onto other games. When Strive was first revealed at EVO, everyone was hype again. Some people were hesitant, but the general trend was a positive attitude. However, when they finally revealed the mechanics, it became clear that Arcsys had changed a LOT. I often see people compare the Xrd players who are upset with Strive to the XX players who were upset with Xrd. But I think this lacks the understanding of how greatly Strive changes things. The removal of P>K>S>H>D gatlings is quite literally the end of a 20 YEAR TRADITION. Huge changes like this were bound to be divisive. A lot of my Xrd friends felt betrayed by Arcsys, as though they had waited 2 years for a game that spat on everything they knew about their favorite game. While this is obviously an overreaction, I don't think that the whole of Xrd players who don't like Strive should be dunked on.

    As for Strive as a game, I'm not really interested in it, and Xrd's lack of rollback has made me move on from my most-played game ever (I picked up MBAACC btw, great game, I've made lots of friends and made a lot of progress as a player in the past 2 years). But I don't think Strive lacks the movement, character variety, and system options that create a deep game. It still has airdashes (albeit changed), it has very distinct characters, and it has the most complex RC system of any GG game to date.

    I'm not really sure why I wrote all of this, it's kind of a mish-mash of lots of ideas. I'm not even sure if it's on-topic. But if you'd like to discuss further in the replies I'd be glad to.

  4. ACR is ALMOST a kusoge, but not quite, thats why its fun

  5. I’m reminded of a quote from Core-A-gaming “complexity does not equal depth.”
    I’m not saying complexity is a bad thing, but it’s not the be all end all.

  6. I do remember that in the tutorial of Blazblue CS (i think), the game mocked you for playing in "Stylish" mode. Now we kinda have "Stylish" mode as the default mode in Strive.

  7. Sometimes I wonder if those highly complex games ever existed, like, sfiv at the time got shit for it, KI also, BB also, Xrd also. Like was ever a truly complex fg that wasn't accesible for newbies? Because for what I can see, plus r, 3s weren't that difficult to learn, it just didn't have something to learn from.

  8. HNK sounds really similar to KU-SO-GE.

    It’s hilarious that my mans in the video mentioned this game. LMAO

  9. my immediate thought was BB is fucking hard lol

  10. Man, i wasnt paying attention and when you said the eternal fighting game question I coulda swore you were gonna say "will this kill?"
    Love the vids man

  11. Can’t we all just fast forward our mindset to the release of Guilty Gear XXXXXXtacular and start talking about how the good old days of STRIVE was “REAL” Guilty Gear

  12. It's really funny how people call Strive SFV for GG when SFV was applying Xrd's design philosophy to Street Fighter.

  13. HnK probably has the most cursed combos ever.

  14. Some years ago:
    – Games are too hard boiz.
    – Ye, les make easier games.

    Some years later:
    – How about we make Dark Souls so that people can enjoy harder games?
    – Bro that's fantastic idea, so genius and innovative!

    Talk about history repetition.

  15. I love it when you talk about older fighting games

  16. So Blaz Blue was the game that got me into fighting games, so I have no frame of reference.

  17. I've found CF to be a lot more complicated to learn than rev2. In rev I can mash 5K and confirm as Chipp or just default to gamma RC. Playing Bang, my gatlings are kinda weird (You can't do 2b-6a…but you can do 2b-5b-6a, you only have one jab, and it can't go into 2a etc) and I die if I get challenged or fail to crouch confirm and whiff 6c. That's ignoring all the other character specific stuff. Sure its not optimal or high level but that's the point, CF actually feels harder to break into.

  18. I'm the definition of a scrub in fighting games (I do love them though) but, isn't gatekeeping people for the sake of promotinig high level play kind of a contradiction? I mean, if you gatekeep people, you get less and less people learning the ropes and getting proficient and, eventually, you get less and less high level challengers and hit your level cap sooner… right?
    Beside, people have to start somewhere, I mean, you don't go from "I've never driven a car" to that "formula one analogy" in one step…
    Also, why not ranting about gamepads, after all you can map multiple buttons in one or training modes, because it's not trial by fire anymore…
    Or am I just salty because I'm the opposite of an alpha predator in fighting games? @_@

  19. I thought BlazBlue and dbfz had potential in it's core design from the start the thing is "easy to do" is fine to me, but linier and the feeling of being boxed in when it comes to creative styles of play. strive being easy isn't the problem. It's executionaly unintuitive making it actually harder for new players half the time there's camera issues. You hit dust and your half of screan tryin to combo OR there's a big number covering the screen strives issues are not simplification or anything like that. I think it's just bad. And ignore the little things I just said about Cera issues the real issue is the gameplay at it's core.

  20. People say any game is scrubby usually is a scrub.

  21. DBFZ is what got me into the FGC. I remember at the beginning I even found quarter circle motions and the basic universal bnb to be challenging. Xrd and Accent Core are my favorite games now, but if they were my first fighting game I know for sure I never would have stuck around. Even DBFZ was still too difficult for some of my irl friends to stick with.

  22. The answer to the question: any fighting game is bad unless it includes Hakumen

  23. If I was a new player and someone did that combo to me I think I'd just fuckin quit right there lol, nobody got time for that.

  24. If all of the cars in the world were Formula 1 racers would you buy a car? YES. It still a car. It beats walking

  25. Oh yeah, that button hold system was in Chaos Code as well. They had it work for as long as you hold the button. It still has some true 1 frame link combos due to how Cthylla's Incarnation super works, but yeah, I like the system. It feels good.

  26. easy, because are new games, they get used to it, the new games turns into "games" a new game get announced, they hate that game and love the current game and the old with 3000 rereleases, then repeat

  27. Advance inputs sounds super fucking cool ngl. 5 input repeating chances for 1fr links sounds like such a good thing.

  28. Those hnk clips look like dragon ball fighterz turbo lol

  29. I will say, I don't like the disrespect towards HNK and +R or your idea of good/bad games. If you don't like a certain game, that's fine, and I get that you're also kinda using HNK as an example in defense of Blazblue in this vid and trying to make a point, but calling it a meme game feels disrespectful to the community and competitive players that still play and learn it today. I don't play HNK and I have some fighting games that I straight up dislike because they aren't for me. I can also totally understand why people find it funny or hard to approach. Some players don't wanna get comboed forever, but the players that are playing love that amount of freedom and risk. Some people love the stakes and doing long combos. Not everyone wants a free burst. It having this wild stuff doesn't make it less serious or less valuable as a fighting game. It's just a different experience.

  30. I feel like alot of "FG Boomers" confuse hard execution with depth.
    I'm not saying all fighting games should be easy to execute, but there is a limit on how far you should go with that. Just because a game is super-hard to play and execute doesn't make it deep and most of the time, just isn't fun, especially for beginners.

  31. DBFZ is "easy and filled with auto combos" yet people are scarred to try it…

  32. I've played fighting games casually since I was 10 but I've always followed news, im 29 now. Shit i hear every new game, "This (insert new title here) is shit, the old (or previous version) of (insert title here) is better"

    MK 10 sucks mk 9 is better
    Mk11 sucks mk 10 is the best
    SFIV is shite, SF 3rd strike is better (luckily street fighter 3rd strike is still world class)
    SFV is trash, SFIV was amazing.

    No matter what the pervious gen is better the only time a current generation is better is when it's now the previous game

  33. Honestly the grab in Blazblue is about as lenient as your standard overhead. It’s like the exact same timing for “Yo think fast” that is applied to one at least. I kind of prefer this compared to your traditional “I hope you guessed right on their approach on if they grabbed or not or you’re fucked” that GG and KOF use.
    Minor gripe but throws that are “forward/backward heavy” suck.

  34. "man, I can't believe I have to learn frc to play XX"
    laughs in Faust

  35. Fighting games only get good the previous generation

  36. Honestly pure crazy complex games have no place in the market nowadays. Especially when newcomers are harder to get into fighting game with all the mobile games out there, unlike in the past where you gather at the arcade.

    KoF XIII is awesome, that game ended up almost breaking SNK apart iirc.

  37. I thought the question was "Where's the rollback, or nowadays – where's the crossplay?" Cool vid though!

  38. That Q&A at the start was genuinely painfully cringe at times

  39. Sure LK, all the people criticizing strive s game design s poverty are literally this guy on the video, sure LK, giving new assists to all characters won t add anything to dbfz, sure LK not converting from a far hit without meter is a guilty gear fundamental rule, Sure LK janemba and hit would be kid buu level of threat if they were not fuzzyable and bardock should have remain this mix up monster considering his overall design…
    super sad when your selfish, competitive and dishonest part takes the best of you :).
    A filthy dizzy/arakune/nine/ bedman/raven/janemba main who would love to still be able to have his fun in new arcys game while you re having yours 🙂

  40. cause god forbid their game isn't a new player friendly and they just cater to people playing the game for 20 years

  41. And BB winds up outselling every GG title to date paving the way to other easy execution fighters of its type like P4A and DBFZ which were all hugely successful and brought more people to fighting games last decade whereas Xrd ended up stumbling out the gate with SIGN and once it reached the finish line with Rev2 CF already beat it.

  42. It’s interesting that people used sf4 as an analogy for a scrub game. That sounds insane today lmao. It really goes to show that no matter how hard the game is it’ll be too easy

  43. That HnK game looks lit. Never played and a huge fan of the series, gonna have to see if I can find it. This isn't my first Rodeo, I've seen people hate on newer FG's many times. My twitter feed is currently full of young'uns who are experiencing this for the first time. I'm trying to guide them in the right direction but they don't wanna hear it.

  44. this is what always gets me when ppl talk trash about gbvs. does that have have issues? absolutely. is it my game of choice? hell no. but if it was just some one dimensional nobrainer game with no depth then why are players like Fame and such whipping strong ass players with characters that aren't even top 5 LOL

  45. Good stuffs. Whoa never knew dat bout bb netcode. Back in the day I always thought bb had the best netcode but I didn't know y lol

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