Rivals of Aether actually got rid of throws entirely, along with shields. Shields are replaced by a parry that you have to time and can’t hold. Obviously it’s a very different game than more traditional fighting games but it’s still interesting.
In Soku, the only throws are command throws and most of them are pretty bad. Instead, projectiles and wrongblocks (blocking a high or low incorrectly doesn’t immediately get you hit) will deal damage to your shield, and most projectiles and high lows are unreactable and lead into more pressure.
I thought Tekken wouldn't be mentioned but he even brought up Shining Wizard. This guy knows his fighting games.
Edit: A couple things about Tekken throws. Nina and Yoshimitsu have untechable grabs but only from certain stances and they can both be ducked. Some characters have throws that grab crouching opponents like King and Dragunov. Some characters can even grab opponents out of the air like Gigas, or off of a wall splat like King. Throws can be reacted to, and you can mostly even figure out what button you need to push based on the grab animation, but some characters have grabs that break that rule by having grab animations that don't match the break. Some throws can be countered, some even only by specific characters. Iirc Nina has a grab that is just a slap, but if the opponent character is female and does the right input then they slap back, and they can just keep doing it back and forth. Heihachi has a similar grab that's a headbutt and male characters can just keep head butting each other until one dies or gives up. You can take less damage from King's giant swing if you tech roll when you hit the ground, but if he throws you at the wall then you can't tech and you also take extra damage. Tackles are also a whole mess of specifics. Tackles can be teched, but some tackles can be countered, some characters have special tackle followups or special tackle counters. Nothing in Tekken is simple, you have to have an encyclopedic knowledge or you will take damage that you really didn't need to take.
Oh and throws beat out armored moves so they're useful for something even if your opponent has perfect throw break reflexes.
I’ve always enjoyed how smash handled grabs in their game design. You have 3 different versions of grabs and then you pick 1 of 4 different throws so there’s a lot of expression. Also some command grabs are fxcking ruthless in that game.
The stuff about how important having at least some fast unreactable offense is in a game is a lesson I learned a few years ago when For Honor came out. Me and my friend were super amped up for the game especially once we heard that one of the focuses of the game was having a lot of things be reactable which to our minds at the time was like them saying "this game is gonna be REALLY FAIR" But as we got better at the game and fought against better players we realized that the fact that everything was so reactable made the game really defensive and it felt not worth it to try to play offensively (in a 1v1 duel type scenario) and the top classes at the time were ones that had at least one unreactable or hard to react to move… and while I personally do enjoy playing more defensively I dislike when one type of playstyle is kind of forced onto the players. (also as a note I'm only talking about the first like month or so when For Honor released and I have no idea how the meta developed past that point this is just what I observed at the time)
I wonder if there's a video out there documenting how ass early For Honour was because everything was reactable and after the game got dragged down into feinting heavies at each other it eventually had to shift into weird unlock dash attack gimmicks.
In hftf throws are instant yet are techable. However, the tech window is 2 frames like come on capcom Not to mention some grabs range from over powered to “enemy gets full combo easily”. Luckily characters like dio have to hope that you can’t block or can’t punish their grab, else you can’t be opened up. A character like rubber, an annoying piece of shit, his grab not only gives him oki and gets you stuck in a vortex but it also builds meter like hell. I guess in some games grabs are in fact broken, especially when they seem like an afterthought
I'm not a fan of throws either, I'd only give em to grapplers. instead of constant unreactable 50/50 shit, a guard and/or stamina gauge would be cool imo
I have never understood why throws have quick frames especially because they "normally" do decent damage and throws are unblockable. Also throw animations in loads of fighters are notorious for having no clear definition that they are being performed. These traits with throws have been a staple for years. Why don't we see more fighters tweak or change the throw mechanic because honestly it's never been perfect, the fighting game genre normally fears change. And one last thing, online throw teching, inconsistent as the British weather haha.
Regarding that last point about throws being cheese in Tekken, the standard throws are reactable, yes and will be broken all the time at high level. But a lot of characters have multiple throws with the same startup but different breaks, so their throws are more like a 50/50 in that sense because you have to guess. I'm not saying it's cheese, just wanted to add that point.
I don't agree with you on this. Something that not only goes through your guard and also happens in a fraction of a second and expects a split second reaction out of you will always feel cheap to me
Me a VF player that has had throw tech literally have zangief motions you had to do to tech and a separate button to tech crouched versions of throws with their own set of motions plus ground….. WEAK
I might as well out myself as a Scrub in Marvel, but I find throws in Marvel really annoying. For starters, Forward + Heavy or Back + Heavy can be annoying to lab sometimes if you're just in training mode. You cant just use those moves at close range to see how they hit cause then you'll throw. Its a minor annoyance and you just get used to it but im used to B+C or LP+LK being throw so its a separate input so you dont worry Second, the throws being INSTANT in Marvel means it can beat out alot of things. Including doing forward Heavy, but you were just slightly too far away for the move to land, then the opponent gets in and beats your heavy with a throw. When that happens, it annoys the crap out of me. And no, this is NOT saying Marvel throws a bad game design. Its designed for the system and its very good for it. I just suck at it. But the reason it annoys me so much is some games have an attack triangle with Attacks beating Throws, Throws beating Blocks, and Blocks beating Attacks. Some games emphasize this more than others. Sometimes ANY attack will mean you're not throwable, like in DOA or Pokken (though there are exceptions to the rule), and other times its more specific attacks will beat throws, like when a character has a command normal thats a jumping overhead so it whiffs like BBTAG having 5C and about half the cast has it be a jumping overhead, and the other half is extremely fast so beating 5C with a throw is difficult. So I get used to this attack triangle cause it makes sense. Then I play Marvel 3 and I'm getting grabbed out of my air normals (cause im bad) or my block strings (cause im bad) or my ANYTHING (because I suck at Marvel). Throws in Marvel are one to three frames and tend to beat out alot of options and, depending on the character, can lead to big damage, so it does get on my nerves. Again, not because I think its bad design, but because Im more used to Throws being a dedicated button or input that doesnt overlap with other options, as well as being slower.
My only complain about throws is when they are one button+forward (or just standing close to your opponent). I'd rather have them be a two button command like 3s, SFV or Tekken. It feels way more intuitive and intentional that way
I really hate how there is no throw game in high level tekken. I know the game is complex, but it just feels wrong when someone is just blocking attacks all day
Except for Tekken 7. Tekken 7 added 6 extra frames for the throw tech compared to Tekken games before that. Throws weren't completely reactable in previous Tekken games. Leffen calling it cheese is hilarious since he didn't play Tekken on normal mode, and only played easy Tekken 7. And even then, throws aren't integral to the offense in tekken, entire sets can go without throws or the threat of throws. In tekken, offense and defense are connected mostly to footsies, and footsies in Tekken is execution and reads. If you don't know how to block then sidestep, or control how far your forward dash is or how to backdash twice at least, you can't play tekken. movement is how tekken works, and that requires a lot of practice.
The "if all moves are reactable, then offense is useless" was proven to be super true with vanilla For Honor. Tournaments would go on with two Warlord just staring at each other in that game LOL.
my biggest problem is being unable to gauge the distance of where you can be grabbed (like how your hurtbox shifts when you crouch, or how much throw invincibility you have in the little amount of time after wakeup like in sf3 specifically) i prefer gg's proximity throws because the distance is clear where you can be thrown — litterally within their hurtbox
An actual button combination or something like that is always preferred to over the super turbo style for me because you always control the throw when you want it to happen like a command throw you don't accidentally get those
In KOF XIII after teaching a throw during a 10-16 frame window. A player cant be thrown for 11 frames after waking up from a hard knock down. It takes 6 frames after landing from air rest and a variable amount of framed after recovering from block stun or hitstun throw recovery
In KOF XIII it's also possible to forfeit the grab invulnerability period by performing a recovery roll. The grounded startup and recovery periods of a hop or jump are completely throw invulnerable.
I understand why throws are necessary. I don’t use them much personally but I’m glad to have them. My problem with throws tho is specifically in mortal kombat. The throws there are both unreactable and they share the same animation which is just stupid imo
"The key mixup…the reason you need throws and fast strong offense is any game…is if you can see everything, offense is useless in the game and defense is too powerful." Try saying that in any For Honor community. They are so dense when I try to explain that the major problem with the game is that all offense is react-able they just simply don't believe me. Playing fighting games for a long time can sharpen your ability to see what is on screen. Sure, in a fighting game, I can't see a 5 frame throw break window, but I see the situation I'm in and react accordingly and of course, occasionally get thrown. In a game like For Honor everything is SO SLOW that you can simply stand and react to every situation put in front of you. I cannot seem to bring myself to attack in the game when the clear choice is to simply wait and block, dodge, throw break, etc. and punish. I know this isn't about For Honor but I wish more fighting game players tried the game and tried to show the community what is wrong with the game. I play it every once and a while and the same problem still exists, nothing is fast enough, everything is react-able. It's a shame too because I think the game is so fucking cool but it is simply to easy to play against people who can't actually react to what's on screen or it is simply too stressful to play anyone who can react and it just turns into a staring contest.
Throws in SFV do too much damage imo and are hard to tech which is why so many player rely on them. The game constantly has me on edge, as you can never just block and plan a strategy for a few seconds… they'll just throw you. 😩
When I was learning fighting games, I started out in street fighter. I pretty much never threw people because they always mash at low level and once you learn a frametrap sequence you can just steamroll them. Eventually I started playing people who just block and never mash, and that's the moment I understood just how important those 2 buttons were. Go online in street fighter and just never throw, and you'll notice that people just block every attack and there's literally nothing you can do to open them up. The entire reason people mash is because they're afraid of getting thrown. The throw is the ONLY thing that stops someone from holding down back all game.
I'm thinking about designing a game where you cant throw or hit low, but the more they block the more chip they take. I think a game like that will prove why throws are important
How do you deal with throws? You take the throw!
Rivals of Aether actually got rid of throws entirely, along with shields. Shields are replaced by a parry that you have to time and can’t hold. Obviously it’s a very different game than more traditional fighting games but it’s still interesting.
In Soku, the only throws are command throws and most of them are pretty bad. Instead, projectiles and wrongblocks (blocking a high or low incorrectly doesn’t immediately get you hit) will deal damage to your shield, and most projectiles and high lows are unreactable and lead into more pressure.
I thought Tekken wouldn't be mentioned but he even brought up Shining Wizard. This guy knows his fighting games.
Edit: A couple things about Tekken throws. Nina and Yoshimitsu have untechable grabs but only from certain stances and they can both be ducked. Some characters have throws that grab crouching opponents like King and Dragunov. Some characters can even grab opponents out of the air like Gigas, or off of a wall splat like King. Throws can be reacted to, and you can mostly even figure out what button you need to push based on the grab animation, but some characters have grabs that break that rule by having grab animations that don't match the break. Some throws can be countered, some even only by specific characters. Iirc Nina has a grab that is just a slap, but if the opponent character is female and does the right input then they slap back, and they can just keep doing it back and forth. Heihachi has a similar grab that's a headbutt and male characters can just keep head butting each other until one dies or gives up. You can take less damage from King's giant swing if you tech roll when you hit the ground, but if he throws you at the wall then you can't tech and you also take extra damage. Tackles are also a whole mess of specifics. Tackles can be teched, but some tackles can be countered, some characters have special tackle followups or special tackle counters. Nothing in Tekken is simple, you have to have an encyclopedic knowledge or you will take damage that you really didn't need to take.
Oh and throws beat out armored moves so they're useful for something even if your opponent has perfect throw break reflexes.
I’ve always enjoyed how smash handled grabs in their game design. You have 3 different versions of grabs and then you pick 1 of 4 different throws so there’s a lot of expression. Also some command grabs are fxcking ruthless in that game.
The stuff about how important having at least some fast unreactable offense is in a game is a lesson I learned a few years ago when For Honor came out. Me and my friend were super amped up for the game especially once we heard that one of the focuses of the game was having a lot of things be reactable which to our minds at the time was like them saying "this game is gonna be REALLY FAIR" But as we got better at the game and fought against better players we realized that the fact that everything was so reactable made the game really defensive and it felt not worth it to try to play offensively (in a 1v1 duel type scenario) and the top classes at the time were ones that had at least one unreactable or hard to react to move… and while I personally do enjoy playing more defensively I dislike when one type of playstyle is kind of forced onto the players. (also as a note I'm only talking about the first like month or so when For Honor released and I have no idea how the meta developed past that point this is just what I observed at the time)
I wonder if there's a video out there documenting how ass early For Honour was because everything was reactable and after the game got dragged down into feinting heavies at each other it eventually had to shift into weird unlock dash attack gimmicks.
GG is ruthless about this really, it teaches you extremely quickly you're not supposed to stand right next to them for okizeme.
In hftf throws are instant yet are techable.
However, the tech window is 2 frames like come on capcom
Not to mention some grabs range from over powered to “enemy gets full combo easily”.
Luckily characters like dio have to hope that you can’t block or can’t punish their grab, else you can’t be opened up.
A character like rubber, an annoying piece of shit, his grab not only gives him oki and gets you stuck in a vortex but it also builds meter like hell.
I guess in some games grabs are in fact broken, especially when they seem like an afterthought
Lowkey that’s why enjoy most fighting games except for MK😭
Who do i pick among ryu sakura and kage if i wanna play in and out neutral footsies mostly?
I'm not a fan of throws either, I'd only give em to grapplers. instead of constant unreactable 50/50 shit, a guard and/or stamina gauge would be cool imo
take the throw and shimmy them ez
How to deal with throws: Just take the throw.
Jump
wakeup with backdash & create space & stop your attacks early
neutral duck without holding a directional button to make them whiff.
Shouts out to melee
Today in Sajam's comment section:
We learn that apparently 80% of Sajam subs played for honor
Man, I'd hate to see what DoA would be like if throws weren't good there.
those SFV player names are so accurate. shoutout to all the church-going Timmy's that play this game
I have never understood why throws have quick frames especially because they "normally" do decent damage and throws are unblockable. Also throw animations in loads of fighters are notorious for having no clear definition that they are being performed. These traits with throws have been a staple for years. Why don't we see more fighters tweak or change the throw mechanic because honestly it's never been perfect, the fighting game genre normally fears change. And one last thing, online throw teching, inconsistent as the British weather haha.
Regarding that last point about throws being cheese in Tekken, the standard throws are reactable, yes and will be broken all the time at high level. But a lot of characters have multiple throws with the same startup but different breaks, so their throws are more like a 50/50 in that sense because you have to guess. I'm not saying it's cheese, just wanted to add that point.
I don't agree with you on this. Something that not only goes through your guard and also happens in a fraction of a second and expects a split second reaction out of you will always feel cheap to me
Me a VF player that has had throw tech literally have zangief motions you had to do to tech and a separate button to tech crouched versions of throws with their own set of motions plus ground…..
WEAK
Send this vid to LTG. Warning!: You might GTAB 🙂
Is there even a point to this vid or is it just sajam talking?
Mortal kombat 1?
What is that BOP of an outro song
I might as well out myself as a Scrub in Marvel, but I find throws in Marvel really annoying.
For starters, Forward + Heavy or Back + Heavy can be annoying to lab sometimes if you're just in training mode. You cant just use those moves at close range to see how they hit cause then you'll throw. Its a minor annoyance and you just get used to it but im used to B+C or LP+LK being throw so its a separate input so you dont worry
Second, the throws being INSTANT in Marvel means it can beat out alot of things. Including doing forward Heavy, but you were just slightly too far away for the move to land, then the opponent gets in and beats your heavy with a throw. When that happens, it annoys the crap out of me.
And no, this is NOT saying Marvel throws a bad game design. Its designed for the system and its very good for it. I just suck at it. But the reason it annoys me so much is some games have an attack triangle with Attacks beating Throws, Throws beating Blocks, and Blocks beating Attacks. Some games emphasize this more than others. Sometimes ANY attack will mean you're not throwable, like in DOA or Pokken (though there are exceptions to the rule), and other times its more specific attacks will beat throws, like when a character has a command normal thats a jumping overhead so it whiffs like BBTAG having 5C and about half the cast has it be a jumping overhead, and the other half is extremely fast so beating 5C with a throw is difficult. So I get used to this attack triangle cause it makes sense. Then I play Marvel 3 and I'm getting grabbed out of my air normals (cause im bad) or my block strings (cause im bad) or my ANYTHING (because I suck at Marvel). Throws in Marvel are one to three frames and tend to beat out alot of options and, depending on the character, can lead to big damage, so it does get on my nerves. Again, not because I think its bad design, but because Im more used to Throws being a dedicated button or input that doesnt overlap with other options, as well as being slower.
First thing I do in any new game is try to throw loop my opponent (and find a decent AA button). Not counting command grabs tho bc Zzzzz
My only complain about throws is when they are one button+forward (or just standing close to your opponent). I'd rather have them be a two button command like 3s, SFV or Tekken. It feels way more intuitive and intentional that way
I really hate how there is no throw game in high level tekken. I know the game is complex, but it just feels wrong when someone is just blocking attacks all day
Except for Tekken 7. Tekken 7 added 6 extra frames for the throw tech compared to Tekken games before that. Throws weren't completely reactable in previous Tekken games. Leffen calling it cheese is hilarious since he didn't play Tekken on normal mode, and only played easy Tekken 7. And even then, throws aren't integral to the offense in tekken, entire sets can go without throws or the threat of throws. In tekken, offense and defense are connected mostly to footsies, and footsies in Tekken is execution and reads. If you don't know how to block then sidestep, or control how far your forward dash is or how to backdash twice at least, you can't play tekken. movement is how tekken works, and that requires a lot of practice.
The "if all moves are reactable, then offense is useless" was proven to be super true with vanilla For Honor. Tournaments would go on with two Warlord just staring at each other in that game LOL.
my biggest problem is being unable to gauge the distance of where you can be grabbed (like how your hurtbox shifts when you crouch, or how much throw invincibility you have in the little amount of time after wakeup like in sf3 specifically) i prefer gg's proximity throws because the distance is clear where you can be thrown — litterally within their hurtbox
excellent analysis
Never forget the wobbles
Thats the issue with for honor, at least back when i played every move was easily reactable.
An actual button combination or something like that is always preferred to over the super turbo style for me because you always control the throw when you want it to happen like a command throw you don't accidentally get those
In KOF XIII after teaching a throw during a 10-16 frame window. A player cant be thrown for 11 frames after waking up from a hard knock down. It takes 6 frames after landing from air rest and a variable amount of framed after recovering from block stun or hitstun throw recovery
In KOF XIII it's also possible to forfeit the grab invulnerability period by performing a recovery roll.
The grounded startup and recovery periods of a hop or jump are completely throw invulnerable.
I understand why throws are necessary. I don’t use them much personally but I’m glad to have them. My problem with throws tho is specifically in mortal kombat. The throws there are both unreactable and they share the same animation which is just stupid imo
Can only win because he throws me… Translating… You will continue to lose until you learn to defend against throws.
Fixed it for him.
didn't watch the video, you press the throw button when he's about to throw you
"The key mixup…the reason you need throws and fast strong offense is any game…is if you can see everything, offense is useless in the game and defense is too powerful." Try saying that in any For Honor community. They are so dense when I try to explain that the major problem with the game is that all offense is react-able they just simply don't believe me. Playing fighting games for a long time can sharpen your ability to see what is on screen. Sure, in a fighting game, I can't see a 5 frame throw break window, but I see the situation I'm in and react accordingly and of course, occasionally get thrown. In a game like For Honor everything is SO SLOW that you can simply stand and react to every situation put in front of you. I cannot seem to bring myself to attack in the game when the clear choice is to simply wait and block, dodge, throw break, etc. and punish.
I know this isn't about For Honor but I wish more fighting game players tried the game and tried to show the community what is wrong with the game. I play it every once and a while and the same problem still exists, nothing is fast enough, everything is react-able. It's a shame too because I think the game is so fucking cool but it is simply to easy to play against people who can't actually react to what's on screen or it is simply too stressful to play anyone who can react and it just turns into a staring contest.
lmao sajam has evidence.zip
Throws in SFV do too much damage imo and are hard to tech which is why so many player rely on them. The game constantly has me on edge, as you can never just block and plan a strategy for a few seconds… they'll just throw you. 😩
just don't get thrown, problem solved next question
When I was learning fighting games, I started out in street fighter. I pretty much never threw people because they always mash at low level and once you learn a frametrap sequence you can just steamroll them. Eventually I started playing people who just block and never mash, and that's the moment I understood just how important those 2 buttons were. Go online in street fighter and just never throw, and you'll notice that people just block every attack and there's literally nothing you can do to open them up. The entire reason people mash is because they're afraid of getting thrown. The throw is the ONLY thing that stops someone from holding down back all game.
SF take it any other game god hope I don't get hit.
I'm thinking about designing a game where you cant throw or hit low, but the more they block the more chip they take. I think a game like that will prove why throws are important
In MK11, flawless block attacks are the OS for throw teching.