STOP NERFING FIGHTING GAMES : Max Rants
Maximilian Dood
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28.11.2021
I agree but goku UI is broken
As a casual, I can back this up to an extent. A big reason why I prefer BlazBlue to Guilty Gear is that characters weren't removed from the roster. If you like a character in one game, they are available in the sequel. Whereas in Guilty Gear, if you were a fan of, say, ABA, then tough luck, keep playing AC+R because she's not in anything that came afterwards.
Strive
I like that green chair what is that
Max: Hamaru
CC: Hammer ooh
A game needs to be deep for the expert players to keep playing it. But all the difficult stuff can be safely ignored by normal people who just want to buy it, mess around for awhile, look at the pretty graphics, go "OOOOH!" at the brutal hits and have fun. (that's the category I'm in, btw, not a judgement on others)
The games shouldn't be made simpler, instead the punlishers should be resassuring the vast majority of people that you do not need to become an expert to enjoy it, that there is no necessity for anyone to ever do a parry in SF3 to have a good time. That stuff is for the serious players. That's advanced. Fighting games are actually extremely easy to get into at a base level. Here are the buttons, here are the moves. Fight. How far you want to take it is then entirely up to the individual. And no matter what, only a small percentage will ever want to become really good at them.
I think GG Strive is the PERFECT example of this atm. A game series famous for being so scary to fighting game noobs, and yet, Strive is selling, and it’s not even out yet! It’s making more new player than any before, and why? Cuz it has cool looking characters, amazing graphics, epic music, and seems fun thanks to its trailers and videos, even to new players that know they might struggle to understand the games mechanics.
Ide rather have a complex fighting game with 2 to a few chars that are easy to pick up and win. Compared to a simple 1 button mashing fighter where tier char can be spammed and everyone plays the same char wit the same strategy (any cyberconnect areana fighter).
Could we stop also Nerfing Sword games????🤔🤔🤔
Wow.. just wow.. I'm speechless right now.. you sir make an incredible and excellent point right there.. I would love to experience more fighting games and expand my horizons far and wide.. plus I know half of little things of fighting games.. and it's just so much fun to just enjoy yourself for the thrill of it.. Thanks Max..
While I agree with like 90% of this rant… I kinda disagree a bit on the "mechanics don't sell" bit a little, at least in my case. Then again, I'm really weird.
(Sidebar: Yeah, series dumbing down their core mechanics isn't a good idea. You have an established audience, give them what they like and more, don't take things away. Anyway…)
I got UMVC3 because Amaterasu and Zero were in it, and I played it because my friends played it. …And I ditched the game relatively quick because spending 20 hours learning to do a 30 button input just bored me to tears. Yeah, I could have just focused on my fundamentals, and I DID try that….But when you make one mistake and then have to spend 10 seconds watching Doom yell "Foot Dive" over and over while he wipes out half your health bar, but if you catch your opponent making a mistake you get 2 seconds of "Forward punch punch punch, oh he lost maybe a tenth of his HP"….That just felt unsatisfying.
Meanwhile, I've just started getting into KI because the guys at work cajoled me into it and told me "yo no, dude, there's no stupid muscle memory overdose bullshit here. It's 90% mindgames and fundamentals. Best fighting game there is", and lo and behold, after about 2 or 3 hours in the training room, dojo and AI matches, I was like "Oh. Jago combos are essentially just 90 degree back punch/kick, then a normal punch/kick, repeat until 90 degrees heavy to finish! Cool, I can actually play the damn game now. Time to work on my footsies and fireballs" and now even though I can only play one character (and NONE of the cast really interests me on a visual or concept or lore level at all), I'm having a blast, because I can focus on the actual fighting game part of the fighting game. Enough so that I'm ACTUALLY playing online now, when that's something I don't do for ANY fighting game, not even Smash. Even if I lose like 90% of my matches, I can now see "Oh, I lost because I didn't pay enough attention to X, or let my defense slip" or whatever instead of "I lost because of X mistake…AND the opponent knows how to take out my entire HP bar"
Similarly, Noel from Blazblue having her own "build a combo" mechanic made her fun to learn. Arakune being mostly focused on "Curse the enemy, don't get hit, fuck them up with your boosted moves" also helped.
I think the initial success of the +R rollback release proves your point. I'd say the decline in players has a lot more to do with it being old and lacking good ways to get matched with similarly skilled players than it does the complexity of the game
This makes sense, and from a player stand-point I get it. But from a dev standpoint, as someone who's went through the learning process to make games (rip no job yet, wish me luck). You can't gauge "Fun". What is "Fun" for one person isn't for another. You can't make a game based on your own personal concept of "Fun", since just because YOU find it "Fun" doesn't mean other people will.
I didn't enjoy high level marvel play (watching not playing) as it was just generally a 3 combo game, especially if magneto existed. It just wasn't fun to watch someone get juggled for a solid 10-20 seconds till they died. Many people would say I'm being sacrilegious because "ITS MARVEL BABY", but I just really don't find one sided combos fun. The neutral leading up to it was exciting and seeing who got that first hit, but the moment it happened I lost interest.
Same with league of legends and the massive snowball metas they have had in the past. Where the first 3 kills would win games, so everyone would play extremely safe, and when the first kills actually happened the game was done. (Most of the time)
A prime example is how in later videos max states he hates X-factor and the crazy bullshit it lets you do, as it is such a heavy swing, THAT SHIT IS MY CRACK. Crazy out of nowhere comebacks are what makes games hype as shit for me, personally. But just because I like it, doesn't mean others do.
TL;DR "Fun" is Subjective, can't make logical decision making on how to create a game, based on something subjective.
I am the worst at all fighting games. But I saw MvC 2, I saw all the characters, and I fell in love. And then I picked the cute lego lookin robot and had three of them as my team so I could summon an army for my triple super.
Better trailers. Hey! Remember when Mortal Kombat slapped some shitty rap music onto a reveal trailer?
This video did not age well considering the current Max's opinion on the new Guilty Gear 😛
being able to do cool shit is what draws me to fighting games
Man i miss the golden era of gaming I just wish fighting devs would actually LISTEN to people like max to make better products
"Get someone to pay $60 for This Fuckin' Thing!"
Holds up MKvsDCU
This came up in my recommends a year after it drops and I still 100% agree. As an mk fan I prefer MKX over MK11. Combos and moment to moment gameplay is so much more fun. Which is a crying shame because mk11 is so gorgeous and Spawn is literally so good looking/sounding.
tekken filtered the fuck out of me, i fought an eddy and half of my moves thats im used to using for pressure just whiffs even if its a low. then im reminded that i have to read pages upon pages of character specific punishes and pressure movesets and i just dropped the game right then and there
Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe is a fantastic game and is super underrated
What Tekken did was give you a swiss army knife and a youtube tutorial and said go and chop that wood. Everything you need is there go do it. And little did you know that in that swiss army knife hides a key to a chest with a freaking axe. And that's movement. Movement when you've spent like a week and mastered the bdc, it opens up the floodgates. Now it's not as easy as any other game. Now it's harder that any 2d game by far. Because that game has fluid movement, and with fluid movement come random shit. Which you have to factor in. Proper sidestep timing. Hard as balls. Backdash cancel is basically an option select to get out of most mixups. And with that power. You've unlocked what Tekken is. And it's gonna gobble you up.
Technically it's not as hard as any other fighting game when it xomes to mechanics. But the hidden mechanics is what makes it bonkers hard. And we love it. Even with nerfed movement, it's still the most complex fighting game. Not as deep as VF. Hell no, but far more complex than any other game by far
The other thing, which max does this touch on in this, is that there’s a difference between simplifying things and adding in good quality of life things. I’ll admit that it’s a very thin line, but too often we as a community see things that benefit everyone (or at least don’t detract for experienced players) and say, “I’m afraid they’re dumbing down the game!” and that isn’t the case. We have seen the effects of simplifying fighting games and (justifiably in some cases) panic at the notion of changes because we don’t want them to go too far.
Ps: fg devs, please please PLEASE find a way to implement good single player story content!!! We all want story content that isn’t just arcade mode or survival style “alright, play a bunch of ai and then we’ll give you a special 🥳story image🥳 you can look at in the gallery!” That’s kind of cool I guess, and those are good to keep in as well. But people love good stories that are interactive, narratively driven, and emotional while playing the game at the same time (Halo is my go-to example here). People want to connect to characters through cool/emotional/happy moments, and they also want to learn/play the game at the same time! Please try to facilitate that desire more!
And this is way devil may cry is the best fighting game
I just realized there’s no “W” in “Shodown”
I fully agree, I played MKX for a bit but not to the point where I understood fighting games, I played MK11 and have mained Skarlet since day 1, yes she’s considered low tier but because of that I have got much better with neutral, footsies, match ups, frame data and now understand very well how fighting games work, I then went back to MKX with this understanding and I much prefer MKX mechanics but MK11’s footsie gameplay.
Hell yeah y right about character sell video game,i jump to street fighter series just because i seen some kikoken comparison on youtube(chun li thigh was hot),and then i jump to tekken just because i seen tifa from final fantasy7 in tekken on youtube,and i jump to kof series just because i seen some KING fan art on reddit
I think ultimate sold so much better then sm4sh because it's not on the Wii U, and not only that, it's on the switch. Anyways, great rant!
SF1>SF5
I agree with these statements,I am only 12 and my 25 year old brother taught me how to do all of the mechanics in sf4 I have been trying to get better ever sense and he was an old sf4 veteran and he won't even fight me
this video aged really poorly with how well Strive is doing
The fact that you had mk vs. DC within arms reach is surprising to me lol
So MK vs DC sold 4 million, and yet Midway still ended up going bankrupt that same year…… hmmmm………
The thing I hear the most after ANY fighting game tournament is this one repeated line.
"I can't believe he did that. That took so much skill!"
Or
"What a read! How did he know???"
These are because it was difficult. If I can press a button and won not by reads. Not by skill. But by glue eating. That's. Bad. Design.
If I’m expected to understand frame data of characters to get into the game then the barrier for entry is too high.
In short, make games crazier
1. First I look at the graphics
2. I look at the characters
3. I look at Gameplay
4. I look at the tournaments like EVO etc.
If it looks cool I want to invest myself in it. If I have a character I like then I want to put myself into the game. Then I want to learn ridiculous shit because it looks cool and when you pull it off you feel badass. Then I learn match ups and bullsh*t from other characters and deal with it.
That is how I, a casual fighter, choose my games to play.
I once heard, "You don't nerf the best character. You buff everyone else so that everyone's even."
I need that shirt
Maximilion Dood: It has never made a difference in the games sails
Me in 2021 playing guilty gear strive: Yes, yes it does
I liked KI 2 over KI 1
I have to agree on pretty much anything you said. No current FG is being loved "because now it's simple, just as we wanted to!", not a single one. They still sell because of roster, visuals, sound, overall feel and of course, the capacity to express yourself through your character, even if you're a noob or an expert.
I don't like to use the everything-was-better-before card, because that's very subjective and often times incorrect, but it's useful to look at history: whenever a FG has been succesful, nobody was thinking "I like this because it seems easy and its mechanics are noob friendly". They were just attracted by how the game looks, feels, and about its characters and maybe some gimmicks such as fatalities, tag team, super arts, whatever. People would just go and play the thing, and THEN, MAYBE, put in the time to become super good at the game or improve their competitive skills. They weren't really worried about becoming high level, at least during those games inception times.
Just as you said, a bit of character variety, a bit of good looks, a bit of attractive mechanics. No game sells just because it's marketed as easy.
Great stuff!
I’m 2 years late to this vid, but i have no knowledge of how fighting games work, but Max makes everything easy to understand and doesn’t belittle anyone for not knowing. Loving the content
Watch Max play Evil Zone. You only have two buttons. Though you discovery amazing huge super moves and neat combos. It totally sucked you in for a PS1 game.
This video summarizes MK 11 and why it sucks.
I love fighting games when I pay with friends that are same level as me. I hate fighting games when playing agents pro players who won 5 tournaments in a row and AI that can read my mind. To learn Street Fighter 4 I have to buy arcade stick, quit my job, practice for mounts just for good combo execution and online connection to mess up my timing regardless of what I do.. oh yeah that is very accusable.
This shitty elitist gate keeping community is not worth it being around. Not gonna quit my job that pays my bills, I will quit the game because the game is suppose to be fun and it is not. Smash Bros is fun that is why it is successful, if it wasn't fun no matter how many characters or levels it got it would have been dead.
Injustice 2 looks fun from the outside but the AI is cheating by reading my inputs and juggles me for days so I'm forced to find exploits. Injustice 1 was even worse, wont even talk about early MK and SF games that kills the fighting games.
There should be better practice modes, well balanced single player and AI those are the fundamental learning tools for new players who will eventually step up and go for ranked. But devs only care for competitive balancing and don't make good learning tools they make very little single player with shitty cheating AI. Devs care to ship half ass product and appeal for tournaments for marketing
Dbfz season 4: And I took that personal.
This is the reason why old Street Fighter titles were played with few hits and ground-space dominance. In Sf5 so many players just wait the chance to place these huge and simple combos and try to win the match this way. 👍
Problem is it's become so expensive to make a AAA game that they need to focus on wide audience appeal over actually producing something of unique value. John Carmack kind of referenced this about Quake and how games are made nowadays.