How NOT To Learn A Fighting Game
Qmanchu
Views: 381508
Like: 13428
#streetfighter #fgc #combos
Combo trials are an important part of the process of learning a fighting game. And while they’ve evolved over the years, they still don’t do enough in my opinion. Trying games like TrackMania has shown me that there’s still plenty of room to grow and ideas to explore!
Combo trials are an important part of the process of learning a fighting game. And while they’ve evolved over the years, they still don’t do enough in my opinion. Trying games like TrackMania has shown me that there’s still plenty of room to grow and ideas to explore!
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Chapters
00:00-Intro
01:25- Learning Styles
05:55- Who Is This For?
09:37- Learning Skills
13:22- Guilty Gear Strive
14:53- TrackMania/Feedback
BGM
3rd Strike- Instrumental Theme
3rd Strike- Jazzy NYC ’99
Skullgirls- Class Notes
MBTL- Dive. Diver. Divest.
MBTL- Ta-No-Mo-U
Capcom Vs SNK- Sakazaki Stage Theme
KOF 2000- Inner Shade
SF3 2nd Impact- Crowded Street Hong Kong
Guilty Gear- In Slave’s Glory
JJBA HF- Mariah’s Theme
En aften ved svanefossen
06.11.2023
something i like in tekken is that you can see what the move actually does so you can have an idea first. also it has punishing training, suggesting you which moves you can use when a character attacks you. this is pretty good to understand how to counter the other. idk if something like that happens in sf o kof
The only way I can really learn a game is experience
Not finished the video yet but you're putting into words exactly why despite wanting to get into fighting games, I've consistently gotten frustrated and given up. Having played a lot of mobas (cringe I know), and as frustrating as they can be, they do a better job of explaining themselves than anything you see in a FG move list. For example, actually explaining what the fuck the ability or move does in words and with accompanying numbers that are relevant to how the move works and it's baffling to me why fighting games refuse to do this with their movelists nevermind combos.
This is why I’ve gravitated towards telling new players that combo trials are only for learning how the game generally EXPECTS you to be playing or moving. It’s a way to familiarize yourself with a characters kit and nothing else.
As a kuri main playing with one hand is harder than i
I think trials are a good point of reference to start with, but you'll have to lab on your own and play matches and lose to really figure out a character
I really dont feel like combo trials are meant to teach you the game or for memorizing combos, theyre a challenge mode to see if you can pull off set pieces in a static environment. Sure you can learn new combos if youre already really good at the game, but a challenge mode is never meant to be a learning mode. Thats why theres always a practice mode thats separate even if theyre in the same sub menu. I find combo trials to be a fun mode, but never expect to come out of it remembering any particular combo, especially the longer ones that I can barely pull off when the opponent isnt fighting back.
Also im trash at fighting games lmao
im not suprised you like watching vtubers
This title thumbnail combination is kinda conflicting to me lol
No plan survives getting hit in the face,
What I’d say combo trials are for me is a way to kind of get a general idea of what is possible. What links into what, what does each special do on a basic level. From their then I’ll go and practice on my own or find some more practical stuff.
Great video, just want to point out at 2:00, Korone has since gone on to main JP in SF6, and is getting pretty good.
She had a lot of great coaching from the late Nanai.
Fundamentals are the most important aspect of fighters and combo trials don't really give you practical info for matches… but as someone that's been playing fighters for just over 20 years, combo trials are the FIRST thing i check out in a new game. Primarily because i understand concepts regarding neutral play, but if i Do get a hit in neutral then i NEED to know what i should go for next. I don't memorize the trial combos or use them specifically, but going through them helps to show me what small patterns and strings a character can use. I don't use venom's trial combos, but going through most of them showed me that i can gatling a P or K poke into cS, and then summon a ball with QV. And if i have the enemy cornered, i can go for a QV loop. Still freestyling combos as i find what works for me in actual matches, but i do them by using combo Fragments that i learned in the trials. I view combo videos in a similar way. They don't show you how a character will actually play, but they show you what kind of Potential that character has and what they Could do.
You can learn from combo trials, you just need to understand Exactly what you're trying to learn. Saying 'it only shows me combos ill never use' is stubbornly ignorant.
I think personally for me i always find myself not being able to learn combo but always been able to do stuff that look like it shouldn't work and get in a person head because of it
I usually skip the combo trials and go to youtube for a guide in training mode. Id rather hear a dedicated players advice over a tutorial that doesnt account for tech or setups.
My devices must be spying on me, because I just had a back and forth with a friend in this vein. For context, I am in my late 30's and used to play tons of fighting games in the 90's and 00's. somewhere around college for one reason or another I put fighting games down and didn't play much. Fast forward 15 years and my friend is really in to Strive and is trying to get me to play. I jump in to try and learn, and I learn quickly that the genre has changed and developed quite a bit in my absence, so its basically like I am brand new to the genre despite dumping hundreds of hours in the past. I start become frustrated trying to learn the game because some things don't seem very clear. Back in the day, you learned the game through the command list and if you were lucky they might have some example combos for you to try to get the feel of the pacing of the character. In strive the command list contains almost nothing, but watching clips it's clear there are complicated sequences possible. I try to watch guides and I find out that gone are the days of things being described in directional inputs that are fairly easy to directly translate into a press sequence. Now things are described as a number system, which adds another layer I have to learn and decode just to be able to get to understand the content I was trying to find to understand and decode the game.
Long way round to the point, having that experience really has made getting back into the genre very difficult (your video was the very first mention I saw of Missions, I had no idea that their point was to train you on combos, I thought it was some sort of bonus single player content. Im going to give it a try). What used to be a fairly simple game to execute and learn, has now become this enigma that you have to unpack to be able to feel like you can even begin to try and play that I see in few other genres (RTS and MOBAS are about the only things comparable in obtuseness imo) I used to bond with my dad over fighting games, because they were one of the few games that he could quickly understand and pick up despite being fairly old and unhip. I couldn't imagine trying to teach my dad how to play a modern fighting game. My friend thinks I'm just being an old fart and not wanting to learn, but I think this dovetails nicely into my point that regardless of the skill ceiling of a game, you should have a fairly low floor somewhere in the game, or at least stairs getting to your high skill floor.
Anyway, thanks for the great video, keep up the great work!
When Guilty Gear Strive was released on Gamepass for pc, i wanted to try it out since i played the 2 first game 20 years ago and loved them. I hated my experience learning GGS, while the missions told me what my character can do, they didn't tell why i should use them. It helped it could show me what a combo should look like, but it didn't tell me what i did wrong when i failed.
After a week i stopped, because it made me feel dumb and slow.
Then when Street Fighter 6 came out, i tried that out and with the modern control scheme it made something click in me. While modern does less dmg, it did make the learning curve of combo's waaay easier. I no longer had to worry about remembering long strings of buttons in fight, i had the mental space now to observe and react to my opponents, while i got shat on in higher ranking, i now finally understood my difficulty learning GGS. i was intimidated by combo's and the people who could use them.
I went back to GGS (simply because i like the art style, music and characters more than SF6) and spent time just playing the simplest character they had, not to learn combo's, but to get a better grip of basic mechanics and when to use them.
I didn't touch the missions after i came back, because i couldn't learn the game by doing them, instead i learned the same way i learned to play Dark Souls 12 years ago, observing, predicting and reacting.
I learned what my characters moveset was, my focus wasn't the dmg nor -/+ frames, but rather how fast could i do them and where did they hit.
I've come to love GGS now, while my win vs loss rate fluctuates greatly, i am now actually having fun. While i've come up against players who clearly spent a lot of time training and doing combo's, but i can still hold my own and feel like i've actually gave them a challenge.
I tried to watch videos to understand playing fighting games, but they always came from a perspective of someone who've played them for years on end, they would say how they learned these new characters and how they should be played as if i knew how to even use chancel moves.
I think the problem with getting new players into fighting games is that nothing has really changed about them for decades, it feels like there is a huge mountain of knowledge to climb just to get started. And having to practice this much just to be able to actually get to the gameplay of fighting against someone else, they'd just go play something else.
While they have done a lot in trying to get new players to learn their games, the gameplay itself is still the same and in trying to add depth, they also add complexity to a game where a decision has to made withing frames of a second, and it doesn't help that the usual comment one gets when trying to learn is "Maybe it's just not for you?"
I don't expect to win every game, even every 3rd game, but i expect to have fun. I expect to at least have been a challenge for my opponent.
But when i get combo'ed to death and don't know when i can dodge out, block or counter, i'm not having fun.
When a opponent who is clearly way more skilled than me and yet somehow i get matched up with them and they get perfect wins, i am not having fun.
"Maybe it's not for me?" who is for then, what kind of person can go through the learning curve of these games from 0 and in the end not only understanding, but execute that knowledge from only what the game has told you through it's tutorial?
I think some players and even devs needs to play other games that are completely separate from fighting games, study how they teach new players.
You could just not do the trials, and do what us old school players did, we just figured shit out.
Me trying to learn drdoom in mvc3u in 2023🫥 the games trials are ass
9:28
The sfv juri thing exactly. I understood what happened at least, but undoubtedly cost me a few games.
Smash nerd here, christ our game is easy watching this
I’m practicing the beginner combos every time before I play, and then try to land as many combos in a match and count that as a win, even I get whooped. When, I feel confident, I move on to the next difficulty. It takes time, like with any discipline/sport.
There should be a version of combo trials that's called something along the lines of "tournament winner trials". The most simple consistent combos from each relevant comboable normal, a meterless string from an anti-air normal, the basic/essential high recovery frame whiff punish combo, basic meter dumps etc. It would be a much smaller list but ultimately practicing those combos a bunch of times (ideally in different situations for each) would take players a lot further. Much more than some niche combo at best (usually with horrific scaling) that's done in a vacuum without any consideration of how to actually get there
I remember when I first played Tekken 7 last year(last tekken I played 6 and I only did the arcade) and decided to play Steve because I started boxing in that same year. I went in trial mode and learned the albatross and fought the CPU for one fight after that I played my friend who has around 2-3 years more experience in tekken against other players. I didnt even know how to block yet I was already facing the best player I knew, safe to say with no idea how to block I got my shit ROCKED. We played 10 games and I lost all of them but on the 11 game I FINALLY beat him and was so proud I took a photo of the 1-10 scoreboard. I've played so many fighting games but never against real players(or players vastly more skilled than me) and I've never felt so intimately connected and dedicated to a character more than I have in those 11 games with Steve Fox.
I was very disappointed to find there were no combo trials on Strive's release outside of a few Missions.
But when the combo maker came out? Godsend!
Because to me, Combo Trials are more like Puzzle/Trials in card games like in Yugioh. Set-ups that may never happen, but fun to sus out how to get from Point A to Point B
Me watching this to be able to play a roblox game
Im happy because i learned how to link down hs into potemkin buster into rc into HPB
Truly excellent video including the debunking of the “learning styles” thing. Chefs kiss
Is there something wrong with me I've never done a combo trial in a fighting game I just watch guides 😭
Im not great at following pre-made combos, i usually have to feel it out for myself
Awesome video!
Idk if this makes any sense, but learning how to play games are like a pagoda.
The steps up to one is you learning the basic controls, the more basics, the more steps, the higher skill floor. The more complicated controls, the higher skill ceiling.
Most fighting games have a really high skill floor and ceiling.
Most is a very strong word.
Super Smash Bros is a low skill floor game. It actually feels like it makes sense on what this button does and why it does that compared to something like street fighter, or MK.
For example,
Smash: B does a special. combine that with a direction on the left stick for a different attack of the same vein.
Meanwhile, most fighting games: Here is a move list of EVERY MOVE IN THE GAME, and NO, I will NOT tell you what they do, what these button icons are, what they mean, or even how to put in a real fight. Trial and error it yourself, you brainless maggot (except that doesnt even wooooork).
it just feels like SSB is very easy to pick up and play, compared to MK or Street fighter, some of the most well known fighting games out there.
ok rant over ig im going to bed
cool video and all but talking about trackmania here feels so out of place, id imagine even more so for someone who has no experience with trackmania. Its just too far fetched
Combo trials teach timing. Combo trials teach character rhythym. You cant teach anyone to play. Allb you can to is show them stuff and let them take it leave it.
How do i get the solution for myself?
I really love how killer instinct combos learning work, you have fast medium and slow buttons, and special moves to put in between them to continue the combo, the game teaches you to change and use your attacks to not get combo breakers
It's great that you made this video. Because many people that are new to fighting do that, I did once too. I lost many street fighter matches trying to do one combo 😂. But the best advice I can give is this:
Learn your character bread and butter combos , and hop online to play people your level. As you move up ranks you can pick up more things. As your situational awareness develops learn and lab string or setups that are adequate to the walls the players you face pose to you. Even if you can't replicate what they are doing just yet, watch and rewatch high level players with your character, or even people playing against your main, and see how they react to it so that you can develop counter strategies.
But the most important thing is to have fun.
Step 1: look at the frame data, know which attacks come out faster, which have what advantage.
Step 2: look if they're combo starters
Step 3: lab for 1000 years
I think of combo trials like a challenge, not a learning experience. I dont even go to training mode first unless i dont know the buttons. Its straight to arcade ladder for me 😂 that doesnt mean you cant get a few cool ideas from combo trials or tutorials, but i find you learn a lot more and faster by playing, especially harder difficulties and human opponents better than oneself.
Tbh, coming from no fighting game experience, i learned like nothing from the combo trials in sf6, i pretty much learned everything i know from just figuring out my moves in training then jumping right into matches to figure out what works for myself. Especially since some of the combos feel borderline impossible, i found myself having a lot more fun just fighting people straight up, that and using modern controls since my thumb cannot move fast enough to pull off the inputs consistently
Still fucking hate traditional fighters tho
Thank you for pointing out the importance of learning the context. I teach partner dancing, and instead of only teaching people sequences of moves, I also give them insight on why these moves work and other ways you can use these movement ideas behind them. I’ve tried to learn fighting games and learning about concepts like neutral, openings, punishes has helped greatly. BUT combos have always been a barrier to me. For example I always wondered, how do people figure out combos themselves? I could look combos up and even when and why I should use them, but how did they find them in the first place? If I try a combo out myself, how do I know what I’m attempting is impossible (via the mechanics of the game) or am I failing because of my poor execution? Fighting games provide a lot of good negative feedback (losing, counter hit indications), which can show me what NOT to do. But the games usually do not enough give positive feedback and information I can use to keep learning what I CAN do.
I’ve been playing mortal kombat for a couple months just learning it. I’ve just been playing against bots and in training. Learning the moveset and what has opportunities to combo into what has made me learn the most
I do combo trails to get very comfortable with buttons in a new FG
Talking about better combo trials, Persona 4 Arena Ultimax has a trial for every character where it is simply do a certain amount of hits, usually 100. This ends up forcing you to think about how moves link into each other. Now yeah it does end up being what moves do the most hits for the least amount of inputs but it does get you to at least think about it.
Honestly, I think strive goes even deeper with trying to be easy to learn and accessable (for fighting game standarts at least). For example: every character has a pretty good anti air on the same easy input and an over head on another button. There are parallels between the ways button inputs work for each character so, even if you play a completely new character, within 30 seconds you have a basic understanding of what their inputs do and if you have a basic level of experience can figure out what they are used for within 3 minutes of training mode.
as an outisder: fighting games are intersting as long as you don't play them. it's something I watch other people do because it feels like I need to sink 1k hours into any given game in order to just begin playing.
18:55"But then hefest got… This run"
good video
Combo trials remind me of that infamous "Techniques on how to punch and strike fast Method One" video and its comment:
"What if my opponent has arms?"