6:45 Owner of the channel says this when melee Fox's shine is the ultimate combo starter, edge guard tool, shield pressure tool, both invincible and active on frame 1 and reflects projectiles and is jump cancellable as early as frame 4 in a game where wavedash's first component is jump. Oh and it also comboes into itself, defines fox's neutral and while it's not the biggest hitbox in the game, it's alwase safe to throw. And Falco has a better neutral skip, it's just called Falco's lazer. You can throw it, it has 3 frames startup and ends really fast, can be fast fallen, allows Falco to control the space and control the pace of the match, is a combo starter, is a good snipe edgeguarder. Litterally melee's competitive players are forced to learn to deal with it in order to get far. Also the only way to 100% not get destroyed by this projectile is to reflect it, luckily everyone can reflect projectiles with perfect shields
My fav fighting game is Shin Kido Senki Gundam Wing for SNES. Deathscythe was by far the best character with a dictator invisible dash, a zoning projectile and an awesome dp. No one else in the game has such a cohesive kit. The only rival character is hidden boss Epyeon whose has insane specials, one does 50% hp and other makes him invulnerable for a long time, and his normals cause almost no knockback, so he does insane combo damage.
I used Shen Long in that game and figured out a pseudo infinite once someone was cornered (due to there being no recovery upon landing so you could do a late aerial and immediately throw out a grounded attack). Links were really easy in that game it more relied on knockback to balance combos.
@TheoryFighterSo it did get changed, in the SNES follow up (Fighter's History: Mizoguchi long name I can't remember), they made it so that if you do it on the ground, it makes you go backwards into the air (but I find holding up-forwards after the motion negates that effect)Not sure if they changed anything about the invulnerability, it just seems the same, you can't combo into it from any air normal as far as I can tell, but you can combo after doing the balloon attackOne last big change that still makes it completely broken, if you do the air version on a cornered opponent, it hits multiple times, regardless if you are blocking or not, and that can lead to followupsThat's not the only Karnov move that is broken though, his charge kicks are also completely broken, doing it into the opponent leaves you point blank and plus (I'm pretty sure) and pushes you pretty far into them, so they have little chance of getting out of a loop
What do you think of these changes??(The SNES game is very weirdly balanced and I have a feeling it was unfinished because it seems pretty easy to fix the bugs they left, they added new moves to characters that either really help, or don't help at all, I can't really find an example that's in-between, and it has a weird character selection, leaving out their more iconic characters (Ray, Samchay, Marstorious, Jean, Matlok) and only added an overpowered Chelnov)
Bottom line its bullshit without any hurtboxes. The move is dope but stop it. Maybe you use Karnov and trying to defend it or not but it’s stupid… Anymove without hurtbox in a non attacking state especially in air is bullshit. Not a “Sway” but a floating in air… It’s not interesting or cool.
Something doesn't need to be perfect or uncounterable to be broken. FGC has this weird "the game is designed by God, everything is your own fault, own it, git gud" culture, and it's mindless.
Happy Chaos is one of the most interesting characters I've seen in a modern fighting game. I'm sure were going to get a mob of people calling for him to be nerfed eventually. I hope arcsys keeps him intact.
I immediately recognized Rubbish's editing on this video. They absolutely have the greatest production value in the world of FG content tbh. And, thank you for making a video to talk about this sort of thing and concept through an unlikely source.
Wow, there's enough people that play Karnov that there's a Discord? Got out of fighters more than a decade ago because I couldn't get people to play games like this, haha. This makes me happy.
That's a very fun discussion, because fighting games, because of their design of containing so many moves and little mechanics and specifics interactions because of stuff like frame data, you can't just write something off as a yes or no, broken or not most of the time, A move is not defined by itself, but how you can or can't used it, by how you can use it in a combo, or for pressure, etc. A non specific exemple is a crappy move, sure it's bad by itself, but theres a chance you can find a use for it. We need to have more nuanced discussions in the community.
So basically it's a broken move. Being interesting changes nothing. One solution required you backing up, maybe all the way to a corner. Free cornering. The other solution requires you have an air throw.
Fantastic video! I love the emphasis on "interesting" over "balanced". Reminds me of a Halo 2 developer talk, paraphrased: "I don't think of game balance as evenness. We think of balance like stacking stones – duration. Will players keep coming back because the game is interesting? That's the balance I want"
4:30 looks like absolutely hell to deal with… Really impressive production! I have no idea how to do a bunch of that stuff… and it’s so far above and beyond, when just talking about a near broken move.
It would be cool if you did a video on Season 3 Abigail in SFV. He was the most broken character in SFV history. He has a unique design too so it would make an interesting video.
It would be cool if you did a video on Season 3 Abigail in SFV. He was the most broken character in SFV history. He has a unique design too so it would make an interesting video.
6:45 Owner of the channel says this when melee Fox's shine is the ultimate combo starter, edge guard tool, shield pressure tool, both invincible and active on frame 1 and reflects projectiles and is jump cancellable as early as frame 4 in a game where wavedash's first component is jump. Oh and it also comboes into itself, defines fox's neutral and while it's not the biggest hitbox in the game, it's alwase safe to throw. And Falco has a better neutral skip, it's just called Falco's lazer. You can throw it, it has 3 frames startup and ends really fast, can be fast fallen, allows Falco to control the space and control the pace of the match, is a combo starter, is a good snipe edgeguarder. Litterally melee's competitive players are forced to learn to deal with it in order to get far. Also the only way to 100% not get destroyed by this projectile is to reflect it, luckily everyone can reflect projectiles with perfect shields
I love fighting games but I'm terrible at them and no matter how much I play I never get better
Here's hoping Capcom can acquire the rights to Karnov. He'd be a great addition to SF.
My fav fighting game is Shin Kido Senki Gundam Wing for SNES. Deathscythe was by far the best character with a dictator invisible dash, a zoning projectile and an awesome dp. No one else in the game has such a cohesive kit. The only rival character is hidden boss Epyeon whose has insane specials, one does 50% hp and other makes him invulnerable for a long time, and his normals cause almost no knockback, so he does insane combo damage.
I used Shen Long in that game and figured out a pseudo infinite once someone was cornered (due to there being no recovery upon landing so you could do a late aerial and immediately throw out a grounded attack). Links were really easy in that game it more relied on knockback to balance combos.
@TheoryFighterSo it did get changed, in the SNES follow up (Fighter's History: Mizoguchi long name I can't remember), they made it so that if you do it on the ground, it makes you go backwards into the air (but I find holding up-forwards after the motion negates that effect)Not sure if they changed anything about the invulnerability, it just seems the same, you can't combo into it from any air normal as far as I can tell, but you can combo after doing the balloon attackOne last big change that still makes it completely broken, if you do the air version on a cornered opponent, it hits multiple times, regardless if you are blocking or not, and that can lead to followupsThat's not the only Karnov move that is broken though, his charge kicks are also completely broken, doing it into the opponent leaves you point blank and plus (I'm pretty sure) and pushes you pretty far into them, so they have little chance of getting out of a loop
What do you think of these changes??(The SNES game is very weirdly balanced and I have a feeling it was unfinished because it seems pretty easy to fix the bugs they left, they added new moves to characters that either really help, or don't help at all, I can't really find an example that's in-between, and it has a weird character selection, leaving out their more iconic characters (Ray, Samchay, Marstorious, Jean, Matlok) and only added an overpowered Chelnov)
It’s just a glitched character
Big Ben from streets of rage is broken 😂
Bottom line its bullshit without any hurtboxes. The move is dope but stop it. Maybe you use Karnov and trying to defend it or not but it’s stupid… Anymove without hurtbox in a non attacking state especially in air is bullshit. Not a “Sway” but a floating in air… It’s not interesting or cool.
Wish he was in sf5
broken
I’m so glad that I never had to see that move. I was able to agressively kick him into a corner to stop him from doing anything.
0:55 Balooooon~
Fired Ballon jojojojojojojojo Karnov Wins
Something doesn't need to be perfect or uncounterable to be broken. FGC has this weird "the game is designed by God, everything is your own fault, own it, git gud" culture, and it's mindless.
Happy Chaos is one of the most interesting characters I've seen in a modern fighting game. I'm sure were going to get a mob of people calling for him to be nerfed eventually. I hope arcsys keeps him intact.
This presentation is unrivaled.
my god, the editing is so fire!!!
🎈
Broken moves are infinitely more interesting to me than a solid dozen.
Samchay loses
i love how this video makes it seems like learning a broken character is the same as skill. it's not. no matter how many videos you make.
Whoever mentioned human killing machine awakened long forgotten memories of one of the worst games of all time, thanks.
Yo that's wario's Nair from Smash Ultimate
I immediately recognized Rubbish's editing on this video. They absolutely have the greatest production value in the world of FG content tbh. And, thank you for making a video to talk about this sort of thing and concept through an unlikely source.
I like your videos a lot, The Dry Fighter
0:39 "Deeming something broken is the day 1 option select that will help you avoid any accountability". Nice 😛
Wow, there's enough people that play Karnov that there's a Discord? Got out of fighters more than a decade ago because I couldn't get people to play games like this, haha. This makes me happy.
"and it can be canceled" Yep, that's why I'll never seriously touch these games. Way too much guessing of unreactable move cancels.
Wait is Jean a discount guile.
Next time mention the name of the game right after introducing the move itself, please.
6:46 – Ok… so it's broken since you admit it would get patched if possible. Thanks.
I don't think you know the definition of notorious…
That's a very fun discussion, because fighting games, because of their design of containing so many moves and little mechanics and specifics interactions because of stuff like frame data, you can't just write something off as a yes or no, broken or not most of the time, A move is not defined by itself, but how you can or can't used it, by how you can use it in a combo, or for pressure, etc. A non specific exemple is a crappy move, sure it's bad by itself, but theres a chance you can find a use for it. We need to have more nuanced discussions in the community.
Great vid btw, sorry my wrting is so rambly lol.
BALLOOOOOOOOOOON!!!
sick editing and production
So basically it's a broken move. Being interesting changes nothing. One solution required you backing up, maybe all the way to a corner. Free cornering. The other solution requires you have an air throw.
Fantastic video! I love the emphasis on "interesting" over "balanced". Reminds me of a Halo 2 developer talk, paraphrased: "I don't think of game balance as evenness. We think of balance like stacking stones – duration. Will players keep coming back because the game is interesting? That's the balance I want"
Platinum's Swallow Moon command seems to be based on this.
“not broken”“would get patched”isnt that whole game broken
4:30 looks like absolutely hell to deal with… Really impressive production! I have no idea how to do a bunch of that stuff… and it’s so far above and beyond, when just talking about a near broken move.
Wario eatin good
Giovanna drill is slapable
Giovanna drill is slapable
I've never even heard of this game and my man is telling me it has a community.
I've never even heard of this game and my man is telling me it has a community.
It would be cool if you did a video on Season 3 Abigail in SFV. He was the most broken character in SFV history. He has a unique design too so it would make an interesting video.
It would be cool if you did a video on Season 3 Abigail in SFV. He was the most broken character in SFV history. He has a unique design too so it would make an interesting video.
Karnov's balloon attack is similar to King K Rool's neutral air attack. Too bad it is nowhere near as effective.
Karnov's balloon attack is similar to King K Rool's neutral air attack. Too bad it is nowhere near as effective.
Wario eatin good