Fighting Games Are Not Inherently Harder to Learn Than Other Competitive Games
Sajam
Views: 77643
Like: 2918
streamed Sep. 23, 2019
Getting good at any game is hard and takes a lot of time and focused effort, maybe y’all just aren’t good at the games you think you are.
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#FGC
12.02.2022
As someone who has graduated from the idea that FGC jargon is important for the sake of it retaining a name, it is difficult because to me, a fighting game hits you with all of your mistakes at once. Then when you seek to get better, people can only teach you the way they were taught. Back when I started I could still go to arcades (RIP Family Fun Arcade, Arcade Infinity, Japan Arcade, LA Arcade scene) but that method was just lose until you either quit the game altogether or until you understood what your buttons and moves do and applied it in an incrementally increasing fashion.
I feel that this philosophy never died even though the reason why it existed did. I feel like that natural gatekeeping exists because from a design standpoint, it is the most effect way to teach. Skullgirls and Killer Instinct do a great job of subverting this with their tutorials, but even those can be improved upon.
I doubt we will get an AI that will make you "PvP ready" and that to an extent you will always need to find out what works and what doesn't by playing it against another person, but like Sajam say that is a part of learning. It's kind of crazy to see how many people rationalize time dedication in one medium vs. Another.
Fighting Game autistics just don't realise how hard it is. They don't realise that the systems are basically bugs from older games. Fricking combos that have a 1- frame window. Why should I bother?
Also, that 1:30 part is totally bullshit and is only repeated by the fighting game community to blame noobs for giving up their game.
when i tought my 5 yer old cousin SSfIV, I just kept beating him over and over again. then he got better. The best teacher for a fighting game is patient student. So, now I'm learning Tekken 7 and my problem is sidestepping. It's awkward because you can jump accidentally. But I used to play SSF IV a lot.
I'm playing my first online match tonight. I'm tired of making excuses and just doing arcade
I come here for the content, but stay for the sick segues into thanking subscribers.
Most people don't know how to learn. That is something they don't teach in school
I come here for the content, but stay for the sick segues into thanking subscribers.
Most people don't know how to learn. That is something they don't teach in school
"I lost the match but atleast i didnt get perfected"
I come here for the content, but stay for the sick segues into thanking subscribers.
"I lost the match but atleast i didnt get perfected"
Most people don't know how to learn. That is something they don't teach in school
As someone who plays both fighters and shooters regularly, I'd say fighting games are a little harder overall. Just by playing casual matches over and over I can get a feel for the game and it's recoil system, as well as improve my aim over time without any dedicated drilling. Just from playing matches, I got decently high ranked in CSGO (got to Legendary Eagle) with no advanced drilling. When playing fighting games on the other hand, I can't just play matches and expect to improve my base skills. I need to drill B&B combos and setups into muscle memory, do defensive training for individual characters, etc.
Most people don't know how to learn. That is something they don't teach in school
I'm playing my first online match tonight. I'm tired of making excuses and just doing arcade
Honestly to me, the main problem is that let's say on an fps, just by playing u learn to aim better. On a fg I know what i'm supposed to do, but I don't wanna spend time in training mode learning my links or whatever else timing. And when I get into real online matches, it just feels fucking bad to lose every match because u try to learn the links there but fail them over and over and lose while u could have just mashed the easiest bnb u know and get that win.
The problem I had with fighting games is that you can't acknowledge what you don't know. Playing various fighting games since the introduction of Street Fighter 2 and never having more that 3 other people to ever play against, 15 years later, finding out you can crouch guard a standing attack made me realize "Yeah, I really have no idea what I've been doing for over a decade."
Fighting games are unique, in that (as you said) the responsibility solely lies on the individual. You can tell who is a fan of self improvement, and who really just wants to shift to blame. Also, exclusive to MOBAS, you can win many a game without actually improving at all. Whereas, (as you said again, fighting games immediately punish you for your mistakes. People are afraid of self improvement in general, because it's SCARY. It was terrifying reflecting on myself as a person, acknowledging my many faults, and pushing to improve those areas of weakness. That's also l, why I believe Eastern countries tend to have a higher skill level. Cause those guys can be HARSH on one another. Excellent analysis Sajam!
I got so sick of MOBAs, since the meta changes every five minutes. I’d much rather learn a few character’s move sets in a fighting game then MOBA builds and pathing.
I teach my friends like this:
1, Learn the basic system mechanics.
2, Pick a character, know that character, give them the best normal and the most brain dead degenerate strate of that character.
3, Learn a short combo which possible to chain into super start from ground, anti-air.
4, Now play the game, AI, online, whatever.
If I'm present when he/she is playing and I can say things like: poke him with your long sword. They'll learn faster and understand the fun of "hitting the opponent" rather than winning. Divert new players from the idea of "it's not fun unless you win". Let them know you hit them, you get a whole chunk of their life, you're getting better. It's like Dark Souls, you can die on the same Boss 20 time in a row but you're getting close, that's good enough to feel accomplished.
So basically, all of the things that make people think fighting games are uniquely difficult to pick up come down to there not being enough fighting game players
I realize Sajam has a videogame channel and he needs to put out content that appeals to a lot of people….but he did just say that moba's are just as hard as fighting games. Yes…he did just say that.
This! Yes, fighting games you’ll be hard pressed to find anyone willing to help you learn, they want you to continue to lose.
Learning things like match ups and strategies can be equally difficult in all competitive games, I agree. However inputs in fighting games are harder to do, and I'm not even talking about combos. You don't have to press 632146HS to shoot a rocket in COD, and you don't have to do 236236HS to activate one of your 7 or 8 attacks in League. Sure, all genres share certain difficulties like reaction time, matchs ups, etc, but in fighting games you are either learning universal input motions at the entry level (236, 41236, 632146HS) or you're trying to memorize a long string of commands that involve these newly learned inputs at a competitive level. Whether you are a new player or experienced you are learning things that you wouldn't have to learn in other competitive games because other games don't expect you to press multiple buttons for any one action (with a few exceptions).
Once a new player learns all of these inputs then sure the difficulty of the end game becomes the match ups and knowledge of the mechanics, etc, but fighting games still require that one little extra hurdle to go through before you can get to that point. I agree that people exaggerate how difficult fighting games can be sometimes, but that doesn't mean they still aren't technically harder in general, even if only by a little bit.
How do you find a Mr. Miyagi?
It's all about the reward. You surely have to train hard to bee good at CSGO, but the reward comes quite fast. You don't have to train as hard to do basic stuff in shooting and MOBAs.
But for fighting games, you ahve to know your punishes for an unsafe move and know what moves are that unsafe for each character in the game and you have to take into consideration the pushback some unsafe moves have so you have to change your punish and this whole paragraph was merely a detail.
You won't get much reward in FGs with a few hours of training, but you can surely hop into Rainbow Six Siege, not know all the corners and still do well
Honestly teammates in League when you are a new player are the most toxic people of the planet. Like bro this isnt ranked why are you taking this so seriously
Youtube thumbnail: "Fighting Games Are Not Inherently Harder to Learn Than Other…"
Me: "Hmmm, this seems like a weird bad take, there's PLENTY of games easier to learn than the complexity of-
clicks on video and sees full title
Me: "Ah….competitive games. Yeah, no, he's right."
I believe this so. I learned Tekken since I had friends who loved the game and taught me the basics, EWGF and juggle. Then, I learned Dota 1 since I have group of friends I played with. I tried playing Dota 2 and I cant get into the game cause everyone in my area says, "thats easy just play it." I asked what items to build this hero and they answer just google it. And the roster has so many heroes so I just gave up on it.
Got into Tekken 7. Was hard at first woth the extend combos but I already nailed the basics. Just practiced it and I can nail combos. Had a lot of exp with fighting games than moba so I can easy learn one right away. Been playing fightin herds and found it fun. Tried dota 2 again, nailed the basics, last hitting creeps but I dnt have time hero skills and research optimal builds. In fighting games, I know what to do in this scenarios, I apply which moves that works. Same can be said vice versa, you can easily play Lol, dota and other mobas but has hard time on fighting games
If anybody told me that fighting games are harder to get into than MOBAs I would just seriously worry about sanity
I started playing tekken bcs i hated that i could loose bcs my teammates and in 1v1 card games bcs of rng, but i know lot of ppl that complain on same things all the time but actually deep down love that thing that they can do that… in fighting game there is no other explanation than you are just bad. They are not harder i would say more otherwise . I can learn my friend do basic stuff in like 2 hours but no way i can learn someone to properly lane in 2 hours in moba
If it's takes me like three years in League to get to the same skill level of a couple of days in Skullgirls I can be pretty sure which one is easier
You are out of touch. tl:dr – you ignore the systems/design intention of most other games in relation to people to learning how to play them, and how so many skills are transferable between other games , but not between those games and FGs.
I'm absolutely behind the philosophy that drives videos like this – because the number one problem really is that people don't want to learn from losses – if they aren't winning they feel like they must just be doing everything wrong and the game is too hard. "Git Gud" isn't an insult – it's the ultimate wisdom behind most of life's activities. However, I just sorta feel people who post videos like this, say things in a way that betrays how out of touch they are with a huge chunk of the player base who are interested in playing FGs. Either that or it's an opportunity to circle jerk.
1. Fighting games – especially 2D fighting games – are just not intuitive in how they work. They literally don't follow the laws of physics in the way other games generally try to. What cancels or what links and at what range isn't always clear – even pros starting a new game or even just a new character, will try things that look like they should work, but don't – maybe because of some special state which hardly comes up, or recent patch which deliberately prevented something from working because it was being abused. Someone new to FGs will struggle to disassociate what looks like it's happening with what is actually happening. Things look "stupid", they feel "unnatural" compared to games using physic's engines, FPS's literally trying to mimic how humans move and perceive things, or games where you point and click things like you might be doing 40hrs a week in your job.
2. Trial and error will only get you so far when you lose in neutral most of the time and are trying to understand why everytime you throw out a jab to interrupt someone, they get a counter combo which takes off a 1/3 of your health. And thats just 1 out of maybe 40 characters you need to understand. To pretend you can just figure that stuff out just playing the game when you have little FG experience – anywhere near as easily as you learn equally basic things in others games – without looking up frame data or labbing is just silly.
Any game where you feel you have to go to forums/watch youtube tutorials before you can even understand how things work and what is actually happening aren't fun to most people. (It's easier to learn things when you are having fun). Especially when numbers are involved – same reason a lot of people who like the idea of Warframe, EVE or even Borderlands eventually get put off. My best friend who carried me through Halo games on Legendary and PvP (He's the guy on top of the leaderboard asking why he's always carrying the team), will almost break into a sweat trying to compare two guns in borderlands and how they work with his skill tree. None of this shit is as complicated as what he does for a living, but if something isn't fun and you are not being paid to do it, what reasonable person would bother spending time and energy learning to do it.
3. I learned the the "impossible" DP motion when I was 7 playing SF2 – the only game I had on my snes for a like a year (the only game I needed) – and only when I thought it might help me beat my big sister – how many gamers just … didn't? I literally never needed to use that motion anywhere outside of fighting games/beat-em ups – command inputs in general just aren't a thing in most games. I think all my friends tried out charge characters, thinking they are easier – but not if you want to actually use them when/where they are best used. So for a lot of gamers, it feels like learning to use a controller all over again.
Basically, learning Chess is easy enough, learning to play an instrument is easy enough, but learning to play Chess, in real time, via musical instrument, with little to no feedback on whether you failed because you made the wrong move, or plucked the wrong string – is a lot harder.
Spot on analysis from Sajam. One thing I will say about fighting games though is that the danger is immediate–the opponent can instantly approach you and cause harm. In games like LOL, CS, and Fortnite, the player has several minutes to do things like take position, gather resources etc. So there's less stress in those games.
I think I get it. Some people will say they're good at Tetris and that it's not hard, but then they play a versus mode and get a rude awakening (even against a CPU)
Long time gamer and I don’t agree with this video for many reasons. Some are listed in the comments below. But here’s a post I made concerning one of the factors that refutes this video. That is 50% true. Yes, In principle you can use the higher level techniques like bait and punish, good neutral, good oki tech, in every “Fighting Game”. But the “MECHANICS” you will be using are very very different across fighting games. By that I mean (and back me up here FGC community members) Street Fighter is not the same game/mechanics as Tekken or Marvel Vs Capcom or SMASH or Mortal Kombat or Ark Systems games. While almost every FPS is the same game with a different skin. (Fort-Nite however is the Exception in my opinion, their is building) Same with MOBAs. However, you will have too re-train your muscle memory much more in fighting games then in any other game. (And also suffer more). That’s why I don’t agree with this video. Fighting Games are the hardest.
This seems to be arguing a false equivalence. Any competitive game, FG's included, share characteristics which in the video you did a good job pointing out. Those characteristics being shared however do not make them all equal in terms of difficulty. Shmups, FGs, and rhythm games can be comparable in requiring high system 1 usage and timing. A lot of people are used to a mouse and keyboard. If you tell them to shoot someone they can get better at it and see how to do it over time and even have a base level of success early on. It's a hard skill to get to the top of because it's COMPETITIVE so your results will be compared to others, this doesn't make it equivalent though.
FGs take a lot of muscle memory and the feats seem super human. I can do flick shots and miss most of them but have a few successes in less than an hour. I can't even have a few successes my first hour, or 50, or 500 of doing many things in FGs. Some I might never accomplish. It's just not equivalent, despite any competitive game having similar characteristics, and having the difficulty measured as performance against an opponent, FGs take the thing you're competing in to another level entirely. I don't think you saying this actually makes it more appealing to people either. I think they'll hear Sajam said FGs are not inherently more difficult to learn and people play 20 hours and still can't do a reverse DP input on command under pressure and die for it and feel like maybe they're just inferior to everyone who got good at FGs cuz Sajam said it wasn't any harder than Call of Duty and they got plat in that so FGs aren't for them. Of course they wouldn't be correct, but I think it's just not good to say they're equivalent in aspects they most certainly aren't.
I think what you're trying to say is learning anything and getting good at anything requires certain things and is going to be difficult. This is true. But being a competitive gymnist isn't the same as being a professional stuntman. Both could make all the points you said. Both compete for positions. Both have real risk of harm. One is more dangerous though. They aren't equivalent in this regard. Games are not all equivalent in difficulty either.
I think "traditional fighters" have unintuitive execution and movement. It doesn't mirror any other type of genre, why can't I air drift, why isn't there a jump button, or a block button? Why I am I pressing down to do a move that goes up? This is why I've always like "non tradtional" fighting games like smash or for honor, etc.
Fighting games have a level of complexity that most games don’t have. If your playing a FPS you essentially have 5 options move, aim, jump, crouch and shoot. Someone picking up SF5 using even the simplest character like Ryu has 12 basic attack to learn, a few command normals, v skill, v reversal, v trigger, 4 special moves, CA, blocking plus movement options. I would say MOBAs and RTS games have a similar learning curve as fighters but you’ve got to exclude FP from the conversation.
Mechanically which is the most important part. Yea it isnt that hard to learn the game but you still have to learn the combo type stuff. When you lose in another game, its usually your actions, not messing up mechanically.
in mobas you can get lucky and have your team feed you a couple kills to where you get fed and then you stomp the other team. my like 20th game i went 12/3 but i was still shit.
I picked up Sf5 played all character stories and bought ibuki i went online and got rekted over n over for 2 days before I could get stable wins and was still bad i knew what to do but choked so my win loss k/d is garbage but i got juri and my win loss k/d is better been days i been playing sf5 for days j dont play training mode for hours ive learned thru online tutorials and trial n error and thats been my experience on every game ever its not necessarily harder just ur mind saying that
Training mode is the most boring (subjective but probably a common perception) thing in the world when you start a FG.
Hell, still boring even when you get to a decent level where you can identify and analyse what happened and what could've/should've been done.
Any game, regardless of genre, I simply learn what my buttons do and I get straight into it. As soon as I meet a wall I can't out think or approach differently with my existing knowledge and then I'll bite the bullet and learn the thing I'm obviously missing.
I main C. Viper. in 4 and UMVC3. I have no compassion for people that say doing a hadouken is an impossible barrier.
Well they are. The biggest problem is that fighting games do nothing to teach players the basics of good play. AI is terrible to learn against as it's either a punching bag or an input-reading monster. However, all tutorials are useless. They don't give anything close to what is needed. Doing an input on a dummy before moving on does not teach how to use the mechanics and it won't stick in the player's head no matter how much witty banter you have Rachel Alucard. Guilty Gear Xrd Revelator/Rev2 is only tutorial that is close to helpful as those exercises help you understand movement and other options.
Fighting games are held back because of they still being developed with the 90's Arcade mentality and this is place where it really shows. You learn nothing from getting bodied.
The only genre harder than fighting games is rts games, and fighting games are the most difficult because the losses are the most soul crushing. I find myself unable to play them a lot of the time because I don't enjoy spending the remainder of my day pissed off.
Other games often have more pub elements. You can be really bad at CS or LoL and still have a fun time just doing your own thing. If you're bad at fighting games, there's nothing you can do to just "have fun" even though you dont know what's going on. It's hardcore. If you're bad, you'll get fucked over and over. You can't go somewhere else and look at the scenery or just shoot a smiley into the wall. In a fighting game, you're fighting whether you like it or not. I bet if LoL was a constant gank, people would leave pretty fast as well, because they just simply cant perform against others in high pressure environments straight from the get-go.
I'd argue vs. AI play gets you to a better level in fighting games than in any other competitive genre sans maybe puzzles.
Sure fighting game AI doesn't learn, yet you do and when you learn it's patters it's exploitable. But still it's testing your reaction times, teaching you the distance and timing limits on punishing a live opponent and beating you up if you lose focus.
FPS AI fluctuates from "just let the baby win" to sniping you through walls going up a single difficulty setting. And rts/tcg/etc. Ai just lets you win unless it's some sort of gacha where it instead wrecks you through messing with your rng because it's still playing like it's programmed backwards.
Where my perception of fighting games are harder than other genres comes from its experience. Thousands of hours to barely get anywhere and not have fun whereas other genres I may not get anywhere but I have fun getting nowhere
They most certainly are.
I'll say, as someone who enjoys playing fighting games and is relatively new to them (I'm very familiar with Smash, somewhat familiar with DBFZ and I play Skullgirls), and play a lot of different games, JRPG's, Shooters, MOBA's, Action RPG's, Rogulikes, Strategy games, etc. The big thing for me is learning the individual systems and timings of each game.
Smash, I've spent enough time with that I know what I'm doing
DBFZ my main problem is just execution/decision making (when to reflect, do I throw this super now, do I block high here, which combo do i go for etc.) and knowing the combos
Skullgirls, I can hold my own against the CPU's and I know a few combos, and I can do them pretty consistently, my main problem is getting the specific timing of combos/how to combo as well as the number of different buttons you have to push in quick sequence. C.Lp, S.Mp, C.Hp, J.Lk, J.Mk, J.Hk, Quarter-back J.Mk, Quarter-back KK for a super. For me, that's a lot of buttons and it'll take some time for my brain and fingers to work together and properly execute everything. IDK if this was the actual combo but it was Ms. Fortune's first combo challenge and it took me maybe 30 minutes(?) to clear it.
I think the main problem, for me, is the execution threshold for it, the number of button presses in a MOBA, or a shooter is around the same, but the buttons are much more varied, instead of two sticks and a trigger or two for shooters (or WASD, spacebar, and mouse if PC), it's 4 to 6 buttons you constantly switch between. In FighterZ i've gotten my combos down and i can get what i want to happen to happen 9 times out of 10 (the 1 time is a quarter circle input that drops, not sure it it's lag but i drop quarter circle inputs a lot) so i know it just comes down to practice.
For others, i think the barrier for entry is more psychological than anything else, for a lot of people it feels like walking up to a cliff and being told, "Ok, now start climbing, the fun is at the top" I know i was nervous to get into fighting games for that exact reason, but i played a few different fighters with my friends and grew to like them. I know i CAN do all this stuff, it's just a matter of actually sitting down and drilling it into my skull
Sorry for getting all…essay..ey on this post, but i wanted to share my thoughts on the matter, i do agree with you and i think it's more a psychological barrier to entry as opposed to anything else
I’ve spent the past week trying to learn SFV and still can’t come out of it knowing how to play. I’ve watched tons of videos on combos, what characters are good for beginners and have still come up not knowing how to play.
And the fighting games I have learned are still not fun
Fighting games are too easy. The other guy can get away with spamming overheads on me.
I disagree. Only someone who has played fighting games for years could think this is true. It's easy to become out of touch and forget what it's like to be both bad and clueless.
How I did it was learn the basics and go straight online. Treat it like I’m in the Arcade and learning based on the people I match with
SkullGirls got me to try picking up fighting games again.
Their tutorial systems made learning the complicated stuff FUN somehow.
Small step by small step. And by the end of it, I had learned full combos for most of the characters simply by learning mechanics.
Fighting games need fun tutorials and mass appeal will revive. Skullgirls got curbstomped by bad situations time and time again, and yet the game is still loved. If it had a clean launch, it would arguably be called a legendary fighting game.