Fighting Game Accessibility GekkoSquirrel Views: 29691 Like: 2227 Thanks For Watching! ———————————————————– Combos Provided By: Valhallandaise : TheMadBeast: ———————————————————– Twitter: Twitch: Patreon: (soon) 01.05.2022
The biggest issue I have with autocombos are that I don't have the option to turn it on or off. Blazblue and Xrd both had the ability to choose (granted theirs were a bit more…extreme). But having a middle ground would be ideal for me
Xrd did great work at making Guilty Gear accessible without lowering the skill ceiling all too much (lowered but still lots and lots of expression, while the stuff of past games is now more accessible, such as projectile RC, Dustloops, etc.). Even XX which is viewed as notoriously difficult in some areas has its simple bread and butters that are relevant at every level, including the very bottom as well as the top. On the other hand, Strive is an ugly example of taking out the cool stuff people like, instead of making the cool stuff people like more accessible like Xrd did.
everybody gangsta until blazblue stylish mode auto blocks and does high damge combos and does the hard combo that are done in specific scenario and fd fd block only attacks
I think that smash should have been mentioned here
As one of those scrubs who couldn't land one-frame links in SFIV, I'll try to keep this under the essay-limit. Characters with meterless reversals in SFV could de-emphasize the other universal defensive mechanics and end up making their disadvantage state focused around that one move. Mechanics don't exist in a vacuum, if one mechanic is making another redundant or less efficient then that can also lower the skill ceiling by reducing the number of viable outcomes from a particular interaction.
For the record there's a bit of snark in my first sentence, but I'm fully aware that I may be talking out my ass and I would like to be informed if I am.
i hear omori soundtrack lmao
great video have a like
bruh no offence but about SFV at super bronze you haven't found where the depth of the game is, and is not only on reversal options or execution.
Tekken has autocombos now bro bahahahahahahahah
I think good in-depth tutorials and trials, good netcode and good matchmaking are all you need to welcome newcomers, as far as in-game systems concern.
Something I don't see enough people talk about are the things that can be done outside the game to bring in newcomers.
Good marketing is a no-brainer, but things like a well moderated Discord server, active forums, art contests, YouTube videos by the creators and weekly tournaments are some other things that can have a large impact on the game's success.
You expected an essay, probably because you knew you screwed up.
Motion inputs are in fact an ancient relic of fighting games, and yes they are in fact not necessary- At least for game balance.
There ARE arguments for them, but they actually involve game design for lower level players, NOT high level play. Motion inputs actually gatekeep certain scrub tactics that are too powerful in a match between low level players, or sometimes even mid level players, where many types of specials require tech and execution to punish or counter that is too difficult for your average gamer, and thus would completely break down the gameplay between low-mid level play. Rather than nerfing the special or the tech, and ruining it in high level play, they just make it a bit harder to do.
It's actually at high level play where motions stop mattering almost altogether: Once you have two players at a high enough skill level, you end up with matches where the vast majority of motions can be done in any situation, instinctively- The DP tech that people developed in SF4 to deal with dive kick pressure is a good example of this.
For the record, I really dislike SF4, specifically because its reliance on low frame links for combos, for the reason you mention minutes into the video, so on that note: I'm not saying any of this even matters. Capcom regularly overthinks things, and so does this entire subject. I said all this to make a more relevant point on the subject of motion inputs.
The real problem with removing motion inputs is actually much simpler than all this mess about accessibility, balance and deep design: Motion inputs are absolutely integral to making the most out of a fighter's buttons, and maintaining the game feel of traditional 2D fighting games. Basically, they're a part of what makes 2D fighters 2D fighters and not, for instance, say… A Smash clone. …Which is funny given Smash now has literal shotos complete with motion inputs, but- Removing motion inputs would be like removing manual aiming from a first person shooter. Sure, it might work, but it ends up being something different.
This could work, like how Metroid Prime did. It could also be kinda trash, like Rising Thunder was.
Everything about Rising Thunder felt bad because the game had very few buttons, with even less options spread across them. Not just the lack of special motions, but even the game's normals were bland. This could be an improvement on Street Fighter, in that Street Fighter's characters usually have kits where half their normals suck and might as well not exist, and many characters have specials that are so situational that they're useless in half the matchups… But if you're coming from an Arcsys or Versus fighter background, where good buttons and strong tools are everywhere, it was painfully apparent both how uninteresting and how unsatisfying any character in that game actually was.
This was all despite the game being, functionally, a perfectly fine fighter, with average balance. It just felt bad and wasn't very fun.
…Also, "scrubquotes" is just a fancy way of saying "someone of lesser skill just made a valid argument I have no counter to, therefore I'm going to simply dismiss them." Go ahead and quote me on that, you'll prove my point. 🙂
Melty Blood became famous for how accessible it was all the way back to ReAct and Act Cadenza.
1F links is stupid, "skill celling" and ppl would complain because u wouldn't be able to land it consistently on Online matches, also ppl forget about how much OS impacted SFIV. The buffers in SFV added combos that otherwise wouldn't exist, I don't know how can anyone could complain about buffers and defending the amount OS.
The only fighting game player I know that also has unusuals in tf2
I may have played fighting games for many years and have gone through all the 1frame links stuff but never once have I ever stood against dumbing down the games. The difficulty just drives away potential players and it totally fucks up balance. On lower levels it's justified that hard characters are op but what about higher level? I'm a firm believer that character difficulty does not justify op piece of shits being op because anyone who cares enough about a character that's not going to be low tier can always dedicate themselves and learn. Then we have the players themselves developing an ego. "I play a hard character, I'm better than everyone else who plays brain-dead characters" these same people would complain about the so called brain-dead characters when they lose, completely ignoring the fact that they never practice anything but execution and lose in other aspects because they we're carried by their character the whole time and couldn't cover them when they got predictable.
The only remotely fighting game game ive ever felt good at was dark souls 2 pvp. You got footsies, combos, parries, frame data, defensive options, resource management and most of all – extremely simple input system consisting of heavy and light attacks that change based on whether your character is running/rolling/neutral. Both lights and heavies got 2 hit autocombo (with a few exceptions) and all your one button input windows are like 20 frames at worst.
I feel like a game that expanded on that basic super simple and easy to access formula with specials could go a long way. Its ridiculously easy to grasp but still the difference between a skilled player and new player is so drastic a new player will likely never even land a hit on a vet who knows how to roll and parry their way through mashers.
If only this cool system wasnt tied to all the baggage that comes with being a crusty boss rush third person metroidvania rpg with terrible p2p netcode and rampant hacking.
This is my baby-non-competitive-I-have-no-knowledge-of-fighting-games-beyond-being-kind-of-novice opinion, but aren't Autocombos kind of just like… attack strings in a sense? They don't really bug me too much, and they're mostly filler in combos right? They've never been too intrusive have they? I could see them being kind of annoying in Tekken or Soul Calibur, but again what do I know lol? I don't see anything wrong with their inclusion, especially reading some of the comments in here talking about getting friends into FGs in games with auto-combos who graduate past relying on them and feeling a sense of pride in doing so.
Inputs never seemed to bother me too much, at least when I played games on my stick. It was a bit more difficult doing Right-Side DP inputs on my pads (421 / ←↓↙ ), but I bet they could've been done given practice. There were some cases where it'd be difficult doing certain inputs in combos with tight timing. Like I remember getting frustrated with SFV trying to learn a combo with Chun-Li where you do Spinning Bird Kick almost immediately after doing a standing jab or something… I can't remember the input/combo since that was quite a while ago, but yeah. Inputs I don't think are really a difficult hurdle to overcome, just doing them in tough spots/combos. It's another instance of people needing to be willing to learn these things/having patience that they can pull it off over time.
Also, surprised you didn't mention Granblue VS here, but I guess you may not have played it? It kind of tries to do a lot of the simplification of controls too + auto-combos, but it still has the option for you to do a lot of stuff manually. I imagine somebody with more know-how than I could probably explain the intricacies of it better, but it seemed like a happy balance of being easy to pick up and maaaaybe having a relatively high ceiling? Again I am probably wrong, but that was the impression I got lol. I actually quite liked the feel of the game and really loved the character designs.
I wish more fighting games had Blazblue CF’s stylish vs technical system. Keeps the skill ceiling high while lowering the floor. Keeps the dopamine flowing for new players which is a big deal nowadays… I mean look at Mario Odyssey it rewards you more than a slot machine.
In SF5 it could be argued that adding the requirement of meter increased skill expression in some ways. Now players have to include their resource management in their knockdown situations as well and using a dp could restrict combos and going for a higher damage combo with EX moves could increase the risk when you are in knockdown
In my opinion, one of the hardest things about fighting games is the terminology. Unless you specifically play fighters, there are a ton of terms you just dont use. So when you start hearing them from the first time you get confused, especially when they are used to explaining something you already dont understand. It's like using calculus terminology to someone who is learning math. You arent wrong, but you are just complicating things for them.
Why do so many British Tubers sound so congested
soulcalibur and tekkn were my introduction to fighting games, although both games nowadays are not my cup of tea, i appreciate of what they are for the memories i have with them, however, lethal league blaze and guilty gear Xrd is what made me love the genre. llb being easy to learn hard to master really hooked me up, and Xrd is a spark i haven't felt in a while in a fighting game, i really have fun playing Xrd.
9:10 what needs to change on inputs? TRADITION
HADOKEN & DP DO NOT NEED TO OVERLAP ! At all!!!
i'm sorry you're talking something very valid and useful but i cannot focus on anything but that anji dropping his combo over and over again by doing fujin instead of kou
The main issue to me is modern fighting games tend to remove difficult options, tech and even portions of the game like corner pressure and oki entirely from players that wish to dedicate themselves to the game. Then add easy options for new players (which is good on it's own) and make them too strong or efficient for how easy they are to use (which is the bad part). Then lastly the games still want to be "e-sports" despite catering to newbies completely so they hyperfocus on balancing which also kills player expression by sanitizing every character to be "fair".
I'd love to see more games with the courage to do away with motion inputs, 'cos like…yeah, they're unnecessary. They have their own feel and potential benefits sure, I'm not asking shit like Street Fighter to suddenly drop them, but the idea they have to be there or the game is suddenly shitwank baby's first button masher genuinely is archaic and stupid. Like, gaming is an evolving, tremendously diverse medium, why chain fighting games specifically to one input method?
To be honest I am one of the scrubs who doesn´t like meterless reversals. This probably comes from me liking Oki strong characters which usually comes with the downside that their neutral is not as strong (or maybe I just suck at it). So when I finally get somebody in neutral and can set up my oki it feels really shitty to have to guess. This is supposed to be a situation where I am strong but I am the one who has to guess?
You could also go the other route of giving everyone a meterless reversal so to level the field a bit but that is a balance nightmare so I guess that is out of the question.
as someone who has a little bit of experience with fighthing games but not much (aka im a noob and i suck): im personally not a huge fan of autocombos for _myself_, not because i think its unfair or something, but because the existence of autocombos meant i never felt as motivated to actually learn combos lol like i agree whats said about autocombos in this vid i just mean its not really for me bc i am hard to motivate lmao
as for motion inputs: until a week ago i hated motion inputs bc i couldnt do them lmao but turns out it really depends on the game: in some games i can do motion inputs just fine but in others its near impossible despite practicing for hours, so yea i think they dont need to remove motion inputs but i do think they should allow a small bit of room for error
Oml i think ive fought gekkosqurriel in tough love arena before
Okay, but what about people with motor disabilities? I would argue those folks would need accessibility options to play these games at all.
I'm the exact blend of bad and stubborn to complain when they dumb things down but still kinda needing it cus I'm awful at these games despite playing them for more than a decade
mf be talking shit about street fighter and plays like someone without fingers
such a good song at 1:40
Removing invincible meter less reversals wasn't about accessibility, it was a meta decision based on how many characters had dps and how that affected the game from match-up to matchup
4:50 I know I'm late but they didn't remove meterless reversal, they just separated what invulnerabilities go to what button. For example Lights are throw invulnerable, Mediums are air invul, and Heavy are strike immune. You have to use meter to make it a full invulnerable reversal. I don't play street fighter, I just learned it from Brian_F he has a good video going over this.
( https://youtu.be/allK0yxAr48?t=416 ) Source and a more in depth description.
5:00 worth mentioning that Brian_F actually made a video about this a couple days ago, most DPs still have invincibility, just not strike and throw invincibility at the same time. They either have one or the other, meaning you can use a light DP to escape a tick throw, and a heavy DP to escape a frame trap (depending on character obviously). I would argue that adds more depth and complexity to the game, but of course most people won’t put in enough time to actually utilize that knowledge
Most fighting game players goes crazy on this topic but I think removing motion inputs completely will be the best start for actually making fighting games accessible to anyone but still hard to play because motion inputs does not add anything to actual gameplay
Granblue tried this concept yet their design choice to make easier inputs by making them extremly weak just made them useless
DNF Duel is a little more progressive on this concept but rewarding the motion inputs just backfires as punishing the easier inputs so nothing changes
Brian F made a perfect video explaining exactly why they removed meterless reversals. You should check it
About SFVs DP change:
I didn't mind it and I was playing one of 4 characters that had a meterless, fully invincible dp. While it did make offense easier, it made defense become harder for those 4 characters, who were all seen as pretty strong in season 1 in part because of the readily available dp.
The change also made DPs as a whole a lot more interesting to me, because it didn't only force you to make a stronger commitment for the reversal, it also differentiated the move more. Instead of all versions just being invincible, now all of them still have some sort of invincibility.
This means that instead of just factoring in recovery frames and damage in your choice of which button to use for your dp you now have to know which is the best for your current situation. Throws, Jump ins and Frametraps all now have their own specific counter which you have to know. That is another thing new players will have to learn and applies to pretty much any uppercut in the game instead of just a chosen few.
I don't know, I feel like it increases necessary brain power more than decreasing it and as soon as there is one bar in the EX gauge you are still back to the same old wake-up mindgame.
Imo they can keep it the way it is for SFVI.
Here's an idea. Custom auto combo. You register the combo in training mode or something by doing it, and then bind it to its own button. Then if you start it in the middle of a real fight and just hit that button, the game will do the rest of the combo for you provided the inputs you were at when you launched it do not clash with another registered automatic custom. (I.E. Registering A B X Y Y Y and A B X Y Y B is a bad idea because it'll brick both of them since there's no input divergence until they're both one input from being finished anyway)
Granblue has done the easy input thing best so far. It's not removing skill, it's adding options. One one hand you can spam dps with z motion or you can easy input and lose your dp for a few seconds, it's up to you. On the other hand you can't just flash kick with one button, you can flash kick WHILE WALKING FORWARD completely shifting the metagame of what could've just been another SF wannabe. It has a palpable level of added strategy other grounded footsies games like SFV and Strive don't have and the greater level of consistency in execution makes players focus more on the mind games earlier in their learning experience instead of having to 100 hours grinding a b&b in training mode before they even learn to fucking block.
me when my boy tf2 rolls up outta nowhere
Me: sees this video
mimics voice Let’s talk about accessibility…..
2 seconds later me: I WAS JOKING.
Make these fucking games easier. Quit crying boomers.
I would also say street fighter 3ed strike also has a low floor due to how easy many of the inputs are.
Ya you can mess them up every so often but it's not like KoF.
Where I feel like I'm reading a book on inputs
There was a dude that playd with one arm. And also that one blind pro MK player…
I give you a hard time about being so wrong about block buttons BUT you make good content.
The only motion input I feel like arguing should be retired is the SRK input honestly
Not because it's too hard or w/e, but it's agony on my hands to try and do on the 2P side of the screen and never comes out when I'm on that side dkpfojgi
Almost every other motion feels perfectly fine, it's just that one that's a pain
Perso I think auto-combo are odd. Kinda stop noob to try to learn combo (like me for exemple they just smash the punch but they get like 50% less damage than other ppl so they need to win like 2x more the neutral… any way it just odd and a weird way to do it in any fighting game really I think. like I understand why… but may as well just say fuck you just learn combo or something if your game is a combo game any way… like… I don't know…) and if the game isn't a combo game than why have it like you said it kinda pointless there too…
Not my fav option I would say tho for simple imput am 100% on board with it… like if you design the game for simple imput there shouldn't be any problems about it. to me Simple imput special it like useing a Computer or a pen to write insteed of useing a quill like… Sure you can't do the same thing and it true you are may be losing parth of design that would work in a motion imput game the same way you got more control whene useing a Quill over the letter you do. But that doesn't make it worse in any way… like Writing is complex without the use of a Quill. If you want to do like Typographic art or your really into doing letter fine … but that doesn't mean you have to stop ppl form enjoying there writing if they prf the story they can write insteed of the quality of the lines they make.
Same go for the motion imput like sure you can do more imput if you alow yourself to use a motion basse imput tho I would argue why they remove pretzel imput? probably because at some point your not playing a fighting game what your playing is a motion imput game. :S Fell free to like motion imput it fair to do there even game 100% about this on computer where you need to follow a line perfectly with your mouse I think any way it can be fun I guess but if your there for the fighting game motion imput doesn't had much at all in my opinion. The same way writhing with a Quill a novel doesn't make the story better in any way.
SORRY FOR THE BAD ENGLISH
Look at btfg. Game is insane and only uses directional inputs