Complex Fighting Games Are Often Easier to Get Into Than Simpler Ones - lightslingergame.com

Complex Fighting Games Are Often Easier to Get Into Than Simpler Ones

Sajam
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streamed Mar. 5 & 8, 2021

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213 Comments

  1. Sajam, you're forgetting that most people who talk about Guilty Gear, don't play Guilty Gear.

  2. Can confirm. I loved learning +R, but I absolutely hated learning Fantasy Strike

  3. It always nice feeling in any game (any activity really) when you realize something and your perspective totally flip and the game (hopefully) becomes way deeper.

    Extra bonus points if you figure it out by yourself.

  4. I think the lesson here isn’t that SFV is somehow inferior to GG for being harder to get into for this redditor, but it seems like a lot of commenters have reached that surface level conclusion, which is sad.

    The big takeaway is that beginners shouldn’t have to feel like they can’t try picking up a game just because the community says something about it. That goes equally for a game like SFV as much as it does for +R. If this post were the opposite (a +R player who tried SFV and ended up liking it), I feel like a lot of these people praising +R right now would be shitting on SFV.

  5. I've always found GG easier to play than SF. Even though there are a lot of systems and character subsystems, the core gameplay is quite forgiving and you have lots of options to deal with different situations, not just RC and Burst, but lots of ways to move.

  6. Another thing about game “complexity” is that some stuff is more or less intuitive for some people than others. Street Fighter is considered “simple”, but personally, I cannot rap my head around 6 buttons. I don’t get it, because +R has 4/5 buttons, and I already have all of Ky’s moves memorized after two sessions in training mode! That’s only one or two less buttons but it just works for my brain. Being able to do a Gatling Combos more easily also helps.

  7. 0:58 you can get matches consistently all the time in ranked mode on +r

  8. Somewhere along the lines when information became easily propagated on the internet, people forgot what it was like just to play a game and have fun with it. Without expectations and goals. Now people have anxiety about playing games since the internet has given the idea that to play a game you need a certain level of competency. I think the most fun game play you can potentially have with any game is everyone being at net-zero competence.

  9. Me: a B rank 3s player
    Also me: E rank on SF Grandmaster Challenge

  10. Personally I just get super bored with the less complex games too. I tried playing Granblue with a friend for about a month and it just couldn't keep my attention so we whent back to playing BBCF where there's so much more I can do at any given time that I can just try something else if I'm getting bored.

  11. Please play Them's Fighting Herds if you're new to fighting games. It has the best introduction for new fighting game players ever… but you need to tolerate the MLP art style.

  12. It’s about the learning curve. This is what is wrong with sfv vs other sfs. Earlier sfs have such an involved and intricate learning curve so that you never feel like you don’t have other options you could’ve tried or something to learn from a match. While sfv feels like you’ve learned all of your character’s options in a weekend and the only thing left to learn is your opponent (which is the fastest route to salt-induced gaming fatigue).

  13. At first I didn't want to buy +R and Rev2 (both of them since they cost very little thru steam keys), but after reading this post I decided to give it a shot and boy, I'm having a blast. Literally too, faust is so much fun

  14. How I got into Tekken: picked Bob and mindless mashing

    How I got back into Tekken: picked Bob, Hold Back, 1-jab strings into the only 3 combos I knew, and grabs.

    The things i found enjoyable just changed as I got (marginally) better.

  15. yea i just pop up 1v1 loobies and get peopl so fast. if their vets they tend to leave cause i suck. if they new we run it. Amazing truly.

  16. "V Sav is so simple" Yeah, but Sako's BB Hood though…. (just using your commentary as an excuse to say how amazing it is watching Sako play Sav)

  17. So happy +R is getting attention. Hopefully it won't just die again after strive comes out

  18. It's probably imprecise to even frame things in terms of complexity and simplicity since the games we'd place in either of those categories usually has something of the other in it. I think maximalist and minimalist could describe them better.

  19. To quote Toady1, creator of Dwarf Fortress: Losing is fun!

  20. This guy really wrote all that shit to say that he learned he can match with people as new as him, especially if he organizes a match like a social human being? Reddit is king of midwits.

  21. This is a problem with any kind of competitive community. Gatekeepers want to present the idea that if you can't play with 100% mastery of the game (which they typically don't have either), then you can't play or enjoy the game.

  22. What really hooked me to Guilty Gear and Blazblue are the characters. Like most of them has some sort of mini-game/Gimick in there playstyle, examples are Zato/Eddie using Negative Edge to control the shadow or Tager's Drive Voltic Battler that magnetize the opponent.

  23. While I think complexity has little impact on pick up and playability. I have to hard disagree on ''complex fighting games are easier to get into''. I think it really all just comes down to how invested you are into learning that particular game and how much fun the core mechanics are to that person.

  24. i just got into windjammers on fight cade. haha does that count?

  25. I’ve only played +R for around a week, learned some of the basics, figured out my moves, learned some very small combos. I’m having a blast online. You can definitely pick up the game before strive releases.

  26. ‘Gunflame go BRRRRRRRR’ lmaoooo, nice one.

  27. HOLY HELL!!… Joined the +r discord just after watching this video…found this new player in like 5 mins , played about 10 sets…this was one of the best experience ive had with any fighting game…and our time zone were absolute opposites…it was evening for him and morning (closer to noon) for me.. but the great blessing of rollback didnt let that affect our matches….Hail to The Kingdom Of Rollbackia

  28. as an SFV player this video made me buy +R finally

  29. the more complex a game is, the less static the meta can be (since it's harder for people to map out all the complexities) and thus just knowing a small bit of said meta becomes more valuable

  30. Dbfz and soul caliber are games i dont enjoy online mode on cuz I get SLAPPED. Its rare i find new players like me.

  31. And then there are perfect games like 3rd strike are easy to get into perfectly intuitive at even the highest levels of gameplay

  32. Problem with "hard to get into fighting games" like Xrd or even +R I'm guessing is mostly that it's hard to figure out what you can improve on. If all I'm doing is mashing gatlings and jumping around and losing to a person who is doing the same thing, it's hard to figure out why I am losing. I've been playing GG for over a decade, playing Isuka with my cousin and we just jumped around and mashed. When Xrd Sign came out and I was a bit older, I was like, I wanna actually get competent at a fighting game, as I've always been a fan of watching. Like if I'm playing Xrd and I get vortexed to death by a Ramlethal player, the take away is don't get hit. If I play in a May mirror and get caught in endless dolphin setups after the first knockdown off a jab, all I can think is don't get hit. If I block Sol and then eat an onslaught of seemingly plus normals and specials and the one time I hit a button to challenge I get stuffed, all I can take away is don't block.

    I think the thing about SFV, which I only played about 6-12 hours a month for about a year and a half now, is that I can immediately get feedback as to why I am losing. It's just easy to tell right there why I lost. I keep letting my opponent EX DP out of my pressure I need to respect it, I keep falling for that same mix up, I need to wait my turn, I need to challenge that, I need a better punish for that. You learn to AA, learn a quick day 1 combo and maybe a buffer and you hit the ground running in a game like SFV. You are limited, but so is your opponent. Everything they are doing is within the confines of the game so when they beat you it really does feel like you lost to someone who is playing the same game as you. A game like Xrd I can lose to another May and it feels like all I can do is go back into training mode and practice those pesky oki setups since that's all that seems to matter in that game.

    Which is another thing. I was playing R.Mika most of the time and I picked up Seth like 2 months ago. I watched what other players did and just emulated that. The tricky side switch shenanigans was a little above my skill level, and I look forward to learning that (not really since I'm just pretty much done with the game with Strive on the horizon), but doing simple stuff and learning the basics comes first anyways. Things like spacing and pressure and staying safe and reading what my opponent wants to do. Those are the things that make fighting games fun and I feel like in SFV you can jump in and just do that. When I played Xrd it always came back to my shitty execution. Like playing May with loose dolphin set ups is barely playing a character at all, I'm not playing my opponent, I'm playing against my execution and that's what's frustrating. Seth has some pretty "longish" combos and tight jab links and when I mess them up I can always just scale back my expectations a bit, maybe do the slightly easier version of the combo and try the harder riskier one when my hands are feeling hot again. When I would play May I would mess up my dolphin set up, get hit, and eat vortexes until I died. Honestly, I didn't even know how to develop fighting game fundamentals until I played SFV, I literally never felt like I was properly playing my opponent until that game, I'd just be losing a single player game in online matches since my execution was always the problem. In Xrd, I'd just fail to dolphin Oki, get vortexed to death, and rot in the training room for another couple of hours until I was able to execute it, then repeat that process. Like I didn't even feel like I was playing a proper character if my dolphin oki didn't work.

    Playing Strive and taking what I learned in SFV, I hit the ground SPRINTING. At first I was just playing people without much care, wanting to see what buttons were good when and why, then I went into training mode in between matches and found out what buttons cancel into what and what combos to work on. Since there are no trials, I basically came up with my own combos. At first it was a lot of c.S>f.S>dolphin and 5K>3K and 2K>2D>dolphin. After playing a bunch and figuring the wall literally never breaks I was like, "how do I break the wall as May?". Then I learned the magic of 2H and it's launching properties and HS Dolphin and it's wall bouncing properties. From there it was a wrap, I practiced wall bounce combos in between matches and practiced using OHK combos in the corner and when mid match when I was near the corner and I got a nice c.S hit in I was able to execute said combo. Like that's a solid game plan, get your opponent near the corner and try to land c.S>2H. Simple but effective. At first I was overzealous and every time I jumped in I would attempt the c.S>2H starter but I would likely get f.S and 2H would whiff if it wasn't spaced correctly and I would get punished. I found a safer route to do on jump in with f.S>2S>dolphin and started incorporating that most of the time mid screen. When I was close to the corner I would mix in the 5K>3K combo I used to use to get a hard knock down and started doing my c.S>2H starter there and low and behold it was super consistent. But now they just block it all the time. Then I learned that c.S is dash cancelable and started incorporating c.S>dash button>OHK and now the OHK combo I practiced earlier has a place in my game plan and ….

    I already told you my life story, so I'll stop there. Anyways, I feel like SFV and Strive in particular are great at teaching you how to play the game while you play it. I'm just bad at fighting games, so I needed some training wheels attached to my games to help me learn how to play. Combos aren't that important to me, at least super long ones aren't (something like Seth's VT1 activation combo hits about right for me). Doing some flashy stuff every once in a while and knowing there is more to learn is enough for me. I've been trying to defend the game to GG vets and such, and you know what? Strive probably is a worse Xrd when you compare the freedom and such. It's beginner friendly and maybe that does take away from the veterans who have been playing this game for 20 years, but actually improving unlike me who has been playing for like 15 years but just dicking around and mashing mostly. That said, one of the biggest problems with GG is it's player base being so small since new people aren't picking it up. I mean, I'd be happy if the game has as many people playing as the beta because there were so many different players at some many different levels it was fun and refreshing. I go up a floor and I had to incorporate a new technique to my game plan to hang, especially after getting kicked back down once or twice. I got to the tenth floor and fought a couple of heaven bound foes, and yeah, it was crazy, it was hard, but most importantly it was fun! Never made it into Heaven, but someday.

  33. took me a bit to understand but I think i agree with the general concept. though i think +r is easier to get into now cuz theres an influx of new ppl wanting to play. When i tried getting into +r a few yrs back I just kept getting run over w/o understanding why. So instead of figuring it out i just stuck to the games i already was playing. glad there's ppl now cuz it's pretty fun

  34. White Willem Dafoe looks a little off after following Obama on Twitter for so long

  35. Me and some friends got into +R at the same time and started learning it and it's been so much fun. It's definitely an example of how important a community is to the success of a game. If there's a ton of people playing, then there's a ton of new people playing, too. It helps everyone if more people can play, and that's the power of rollback. A lot of companies have to be looking at this game and thinking "wow, this nearly ten year old game just sold 20k copies on steam in a week after they implemented rollback."

  36. I kinda want to try power rangers but the last time I tried a tag team fighter was dbfz and I would just get open up every time without a chance to strike back so I don’t know if I want that

  37. meanwhile I'm over approaching 200 hours between Xrd and +R and I'm 0 and 70 on ranked matches -_-

  38. Third strike is great game and you don’t need to learn diago
    Parry, but you can

  39. you might've noticed that in games like street fighter, if people aren't winning, they usually dont know what to do next in order to get better. On top of that, the answer is usually very complicated.

  40. I had a similar experience picking up skullgirls recently. Played 3 games online, got my ass handed to me by some clearly experienced players. Hit up the discord as a beginner, and played for 5 fucking hours against new players, and had a blast.

  41. Fighting game players really love talking about how difficult games are to get into, even though that's usually not the case. Makes it really discouraging to get into the genre for new players.

  42. This makes me feel a little better about my first real exposure/earnest attempt at fighting games being Tekken 7 S3-4

  43. As a complete noob of the genre I tried some matches on Soul calibur 6 and xrd. To my understanding the former is considered easier to get into and it felt that way. In xrd I can't even jump forward consistently meanwhile in soul calibur i didn''t even have to think about air-game.

  44. I was in the same situation with +R, then I tried some games last week and won 5-0 by just spamming c.S f.S Overdrive with Baiken lmao. I was getting sick of trying to learn Brokken 7 against the same 10 Alisa/Eddy/Bryan players.

  45. When I was a beginner I used to think Mortal Kombat was more complex than Tekken just based on what moves came out when you mashed random buttons lol

  46. It´s true, I loathe how in SFV I have to learn the specific timing, when I want to Combo from one specific normal to the other specific normal.
    I think gatlings and reverse beat are the most beginner friendly things ever when you pick up a new game, it lets you do whatever and gives you at least something. I do want to learn the tight timing on that micro-dash in the Hazama BnB that I found on Dustloop, it is a advanced technique, I can do something more basic, but less rewarding instead. But damn, in SFV cLK -> cLP -> Tiger Uppercut is the most basic thing for Sagat to do, but such a hassle to learn because you can´t just press LK and then LP, no there is a specific rhythm to it, otherwise it doesn´t combo. It´s ultimately really easy to do, but I would rather just skip that and get to the cool stuff.

    Guilty Gear, Blazblue and UNICLR are so great to just pick-up and have fun with, because you can just figure out the most basic stuff from simply playing the game and getting more familliar with your characters move-list, nothing is locked behind specific timings, it is open and intuitive, only if you want to get into the more intermediate or even advanced stuff you got to learn some certain techniques, most of the times specific to the character. These games feel immediately great to play and feel even better the more work you put into them.

  47. I think fighting game devs try to make games more accessible nowadays because of this perception, but it isn't complexity that makes a game unenjoyable. Even in a game like +R it doesn't take long to learn some absolute basics and have fun against other newbies. What really makes a game hard to get into is not having enough other players at your level. That's why things like rollback, crossplay and sbmm are so important but fighting game devs have focused instead on making inputs easier lol.

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