Comeback Mechanics (In Games [Mostly Fighting Games])
Leon Massey
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How about you Comeback Mechanic to my place and we uhh, talk about Guilty Gear, how’s that sound? B^)
MASSIVE THANKS TO VGBOOTCAMP AND TEAM SPOOKY:
VGBC –
Team Spooky –
Also ty to Arya of TBS for being skeletor
TBS –
Games shown (in order of appearance)
Fighters Megamix
Trackmania –
Riptide GP2 –
Super Pilot –
Burnout Paradise –
Forza Horizon 4 –
Grand Theft Auto 5 –
Mario Kart Double Dash
Mario Kart 8 Deluxe –
Ultra Street Fighter 4 –
Tekken 7 –
Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2 –
Fallout New Vegas –
Street fighter 5 –
Super Smash Bros Ultimate –
Power Rangers Battle For The Grid –
The King Of Fighters 2002 Unlimited Match –
Marvel VS Capcom 2
Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3 –
My socials innit –
Twiiaa –
Twich –
17.12.2021
The metre in the thumbnail is the most terrifying thing I’ve ever seen
Sparking
I think that comeback mechanics are good only if they are an extension of the kind of contest of skill that allowed one player to get ahead in the first place. Something like the Sparking Blast in DBFZ for instance is a multilayered resource that can be spent in a variety of scenarios and will always have a use no matter your playstyle. Sure, it does get stronger the fewer characters you have, but this effect can apply to both players at the same time, so I think it's balanced in that sense. If we compare it to something like the Rage mechanic from Smash 4, though, which literally just makes you stronger the more damage you've taken, it's pretty clear what makes this a bad comeback mechanic. It doesn't reward skill in any meaningful way, and it can also be abused to get insanely early kills at damage thresholds that would be otherwise impossible, which is why it's often and rightly complained about by the playerbase and why Ultimate toned down the mechanic to be less ridiculous. I don''t think the idea comeback mechanics is inherently bad, but I think they can often be implemented poorly, and a poorly balanced and abusable comeback mechanic can nearly ruin a game (see Smash 4, particularly DK's Cargo Throw, for example). I don't really have a conclusion here except Smash 4 sucks and you should play FighterZ.
The realest tekken OGs don't use rage.
Bla bla comeback mechanics are needed in low damage games where it takes more than 3 normal combos to kill a lifebar, or where there isnt a strong (advantage>damage) style of play like strong okizeme. Otherwise, once one player has a 50% lifelead or so, the other player may as well just let go of the controller… which isnt fun for anyone. So make games more damaging or have better advantaged states… or get used to comeback mechanics.
I think the best way a comeback mechanic has been done is with the sparking blast of Dragon Ball FighterZ. It does a ton of things (buff damage, health recover, buff meter gaining, etc), but the only think is incremented based on the number of characters on the team is the duration. And I've seen players using it with their full roster alive. I see it like the X-Factor of MvC3, but better balanced (in my opinion).
The best comebacks are risky ones like the sword you can buy in dota 2 or using a suicide kill move in smash bros. The ok ones expand utility (like a meter that give a different move with its own risks) and the most boring ones are just rubber bands. But worst of all are the moves that just let you escape combos for free or objectively make you way more powerful like Lucarios aura
1:23 did anyone notice the plate on the car
Thumbnail hits harder after the recent Strive UI vid
U love marlinpies quote on mvc3 "vergils out now the games started"
Can't help but think of LTG crying about V-Trigger while watching this video.
I’m an asuka main and every now and again I feel awful at night as I feel I have someone depression as I took 119 health over a lucky launch cause her rage drive in combos is the reason Christ only came once
What about Sparking in DBFZ?
Why isn't X factor on the cover?
You should have mentioned dbfz because it's the worst offender of bad come back mechanics
i think that you missed one of the points of comeback systems:
these systems also exist so that you wouldn't feel like you messed up once, and after that you have no chance. they're supposed to make the game less frustrating by being more forgiving for early mistakes
The only fighting games I play are Smash Bros and Skullgirls. Looking to try KoFXV when it releases. Only one of these has characters with specific comeback mechanics, and out of the 3 that come to my mind, one's implemented great, one's implemented okay, and one is in serious need of a rework.. Joker's Arsene, Terry's GO!, and Sephiroth's winged form.
Starting with the best, Terry's GO icon doesn't change the character basic fundamentals. Terry is still a brawler and thrives up close with or without it. It just adds 2 more options that could help him drastically if he's in a pinch, but puts him in serious danger if he whiffs it. Good balance.
Now the one that's good but not incredible. Sephiroth's winged form. Sephiroth is a long range glass cannon. And when the wing comes out, it makes it easier for Sephiroth to get to the areas he benefits best from. But on the other end since he's already so damaged that he got the wing, he dies just as easily as he can kill. And if he does get a kill, then the wing curls back up, and Sephiroth loses his buffs. Comeback factor, with counterbalance.
And Joker's Arsene is not great. They made it Too good. Sephiroth and Terry's abilities activate once they're in danger. Joker can get arsene for practically free by just pressing down b. The super armor on the guard is enough, but the x0.4 damage multiplier pushes it over the edge. Tanking a gigaflare and a fully charged Roy Flare Blade at the same time while taking about 40% and not moving brings serious balance concerns. But I haven't even gotten to Arsene yet. Arsene adds additional hits and damage to every single one of Joker's moves, gives him even better rolling dodges, gives him one of the best projectiles in the game, and the undoubted best counter in the game. The downside? ……Up b is probably not as good as grappling hook. And you know what? That's not the biggest crux.
Terry only gets the super specials at 100%. Not any earlier. Sephiroth once he loses his wing, he can't get it back for the rest of that stock.
Arsene CAN and probably WILL show up more than just once per Joker's stock. This means that he can have this buff at almost any point he wants. Arsene is a horrendous execution of a comeback factor because it stretched too far past those boundaries. It isn't a comeback factor anymore. It's an all purpose win button.
I think SF4 has a similar system to GG Xrd's Guts.
Anyway, I have a problem with Rage Arts because it makes you drop everything and restrategize. If you've been trading back and forth with an opponent but you've definitely got the pressure advantage throughout the round, that doesn't matter anymore when they get rage. Your pressure now works against you because they can ignore it and in fact punish it. Being able to punish your otherwise winning strategy flies in the face of what fighting games should be about (pulling back from defeat should come from adaptation and understanding not bulling your way through the wall).
IMO Tekken 7 would have been better (still maybe not as good as earlier installments but a lot closer) if it just had Rage Drives. They're not invincible but still really strong moves and also reward more committed players with better opportunities once they understand their application. A Rage Drive is a one-and-done, you throw it on the end of a combo and get some damage or you punish a whiff or tank an attack for free damage.
Or we could just go back to Tekken 6 and Rage is nothing but a boost.
You think Tekken is bad. FighterZ is just as bad with that stupid limit break + sparking and God forbid he gets a medium starter
whats that game i remember playing that as a kid 0:26
some people don't know this but Leons favorite character in anything ever is jack-o from guilty gear rev 2
I do appreciate how you present this video
my( probably dogshit) take on comeback mechanics in fighting games at a high level is thus: they don't exist for the player because at that top level the player isn't the only one the game has to entertain, they exist for the audience that competitive games can reliably have at a high level. fighting games are to a degree, a spectator sport.
MK Double Dash is dope
Meanwhile strive has decided everything is a comeback mechanic due to their high damage.
Don’t underestimate the coin in mk8 yo lmao it really is the most useful item in that game
Smash 4:Rage Intensifies
Make a fighting game with only comeback mechanics
I wish that I understood Tekken's rage arts more so I understood Leon's anger better
Resonance from BBTAG is, in my opinion, one of the best comeback mechanics in fighting games.
Here's how it works-
Resonance is a 15 seconds long mode that's only available when one of your characters is down. It heals recoverable life, increases max meter, enables Special> Super cancels, enhances Supers, and gives access to an instant kill.
All of these buffs (except for the time limit) are enhanced according to the Resonance gauge, which goes from 1 to 4. This gauge increases when performing actions with both of your characters- calling assists, activating Cross Combo, using Active Switch.
A beginner will see a "super mode" that lets them use more supers and do more damage when they're losing, no matter what decisions they made to reach that point. But a more advanced player will make the conscious decision to increase his Resonance Gauge, because of how incredibly powerful it becomes at level 4 (level 4 is the only one where IK is availble).
Edit: I forgot to mention- when Resonance is active, the opponent can't burst. Granted, you can't burst either bacause you only have one character.
Personally I think comeback mechanics make sense when there is snowballing. In league of legends since the opponent gains more power as they are winning you suddenly have to outplay them even harder than they were outplaying you, because of this bounties are introduced to reflect the added difficulty of making this type of comeback.
In fighting games however I feel that this is rarely how it works, there surely are advantaged states, but a characters moves generally don't get progressively stronger within a positive feedback loop. This means that when behind the same amount of work is needed by you to get yourself back on even footing with the opponent. Comeback mechanics negate this as a player can now get more out of using the same combo's and in a ditto you could both literally do the exact same combo, but because of rage the person that was able to find the opening later gets the upper hand even though it was in no way more difficult for him to do it than it was initially for his opponent.
Somewhat of an in between can be smash 4 where at high percents comeback mechanics are engaged, this could make sense as how the characters interact with one another has fundamentally changed with the change of percent.
It still does not work however as in most cases it will be more to the benefit of the person able to hang on to their stock for longer, meaning they are a stock up, but behind in percent so they deal more damage. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it just isn't a comeback mechanic anymore at that point.
Slight tangent bellow.
All in all I think that one of my most fundamental ideals surrounding pvp games ties in very well with why I think comeback mechanics in even environments are unfair, that ideal is "Healing is the most toxic mechanic in a pvp environment". It kinda depends on the type of healing (combat healing doesn't suffer the same problem), but most healing boils down too:
Stop interacting with the opponent until you have healed to undo what they have worked towards while interacting, greatly reducing the interactivity of a pvp game.
I know dick all about traditional fighting games but I play smash. Lucario has a comeback mechanic where they get stronger the more damaged they are, and other buffs like a longer range move, better recovery (getting back to the stage. In smash you hit people hard, they fall, they have to get back. Edges of the screen kill you. Enough said.) etc. Sephiroth has a wing which grants him an extra jump, (hugely helpful in many situations) better stats, and super armor on his strong attacks. (basically if someone hits you mid-attack you just continue to do the attack. You take damage, but you can't die while doing said attack) It feels balanced most of the time, but the problem is sometimes people just kill themselves once (it's a 3 life system) to get their superpowers faster.
Just like rubber banding isn’t discussed when it’s implemented well, I’d argue that the best comeback mechanics are ones that aren’t even considered comeback mechanics: for example, gaining meter or (in GG) burst when you get hit
“The damage buff ranges from stepping on a lego to getting hit by a car at 80 mph”
There’s no difference between the two.
Did you ever make a video elaborating on the fun for newer players instead of "good tutorials"?
Blazblue Cross Tag Battle's comeback mechanic that becomes available after one of their two characters dies and allows the player to cancel any attack into a super at any point during the animation, while also rewarding more skilled players by increasing how long the bar lasts by how frequently they used their assist, each level also increasing how much extra meter you get from the boost, the base max you have before the activating is 5 bar, with the maximum you can increase that to being 9. On top of that, a full level 9 meter gives the player access to their Astral Finish, the game's instant kill mechanic, rewarding the better player by giving them access to more powerful tools for completing certain conditions in the middle of a game notorious for having life bars that don't last very long.
Have you heard of sparking in dragonball fighterz
I don't understand what is the point of this video. The comeback mechanics are applied on both sides of the players and it is deterministic. I guess the "high-level players" you mentioned here refers to the players who know the mechanics without respecting them, then lose the game and blame the game designs.
1.Electrics don't track to both sides you're supposed to side step left. If you ssl into a wall …. Wellllllll I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out why that's problematic.
2. Tekken 7 added way more shit to extend combos in later seasons than it has in season 1 and 2 and rage was more reasonable. You didn't have to spend 20 minutes waiting for someone to drop their combo. It existed back then but it wasn't prevalent. Rage was tuned for that version of Tekken.
3. You can do way more damage without a rage art 90% of the time which is why you don't see them used every round in tournaments, people are more likely to convert their rage art into a rage drive since naked rage drives ( which seems to be what you're bitching about) are easy to predict and if you whiff a rage drive you're gonna have a bad time. They do use them in tournaments …but i almost never see them used every round since rage drives have more utility and create openings (since you know you're positive on block) Rage arts don't do that. Maybe Aussies play different ? ( Is that why they don't rank in most tournaments?)
4. Rage makes matches more hype and fun to watch honestly. Keeps them from becoming dull affairs.
imagine thinking the blueshell isn't the worst thing to happen to a racing game
The way I see it, a comeback mechanic would need to be more of a tool than a straight buff. New players would use the tool un-optimally and get a bit of use out of it, but skilled players could use it better, and their opponent could avoid it.
Like……….. I dunno, you get a new move? Not like a final smash, just a slightly more powerful and unique move (keyword unique, not just an upgraded version of one of your other moves).
In a way the items in Mario Kart are also tools? So it makes sense.
"Tekkens movement isn't good enough for me" And that was when I knew this was all just salt. Not actual in depth talk.
“It goes from stepping in a lego to getting hit by a car going 80mph”
What the difference?
The best fighting game comeback mechanic IMO will always be T.O.P from Fatal Fury: Mark of the Wolves.
I feel like Heat Up in Blade Strangers (yeah this game exists and it's honestly not bad, despite being very simple) is a decent enough comeback mechanic. Basically when you reach low HP, you can start Heat Up, and it basically boosts your characters and makes them much faster, but it's limited in time, as seen by the meter gauge emptying. You can also use a part of that meter to do a super if you want.
Tekken 7's rage stuff imo really would be fine it fine tuned. Just that the game is so bloated really everything bout it is ridiculous, not just Rage.
If I had a race with someone and as one of us fell further and further behind the person ahead got slower as distance increased would that be enjoyable? No.
If the person behind got faster and faster? Yes, that would be more fun than if one person could just cruise with a half lap lead.
(Not necessarily commenting on game design, just saying rubber band/comeback mechanics would add to tension/fun in an irl race.)
Great video overall. My opinion on comeback mechanics in fighting games—ignoring for a moment what the mechanic actually is and how it’s implemented, and more as opinion of abstract principle than as a comment on any existing game—is dependent on the game’s typical damage rate for attacks and combos.
A game like Guilty Gear Strive doesn’t need comeback mechanics, only escape and reversal options, because no matter how far behind you are every character has the tools to win within 15 seconds after a few good reads. However, in some fighting games the damage from most attacks is so modest that a losing player can fall very, very far behind before they actually lose. In this situation I think it’s worthwhile to consider ways that losing players could be given a fighting chance, since there’s a sliding scale between underdog scenarios and practically-hopeless scenarios, and I don’t think the hype from a 1 in 100 odds comeback is enough to justify the feeling of foregone conclusion that would permeate most of the other 99.
Finally this will let me beat my girlfriend thank you
I liek sparking blast in dragon ball 🙂