Comeback Mechanics (In Games [Mostly Fighting Games])
Leon Massey
Views: 245579
Like: 11005
How about you Comeback Mechanic to my place and we uhh, talk about Guilty Gear, how’s that sound? B^)
MASSIVE THANKS TO VGBOOTCAMP AND TEAM SPOOKY:
VGBC –
Team Spooky –
Also ty to Arya of TBS for being skeletor
TBS –
Games shown (in order of appearance)
Fighters Megamix
Trackmania –
Riptide GP2 –
Super Pilot –
Burnout Paradise –
Forza Horizon 4 –
Grand Theft Auto 5 –
Mario Kart Double Dash
Mario Kart 8 Deluxe –
Ultra Street Fighter 4 –
Tekken 7 –
Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2 –
Fallout New Vegas –
Street fighter 5 –
Super Smash Bros Ultimate –
Power Rangers Battle For The Grid –
The King Of Fighters 2002 Unlimited Match –
Marvel VS Capcom 2
Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3 –
My socials innit –
Twiiaa –
Twich –
17.12.2021
I don't get why you should be rewarded for losing I mean in dbfz I get the sparking blast being better with less characters since you have less assists but limit break is stupid and don't get the started on Smash Bros giving comeback mechanics to people who aren't even losing
I hate GTAV's rubberbanding. Everyone is catching up and falling behind constantly and the lead changes constantly like a slot machine.
I hate rubber banding. No matter what it is.
I should be even every time. My little glue eating brother shouldn't go faster than me because I'm better. That's stupid. Items in mario kart are bad as well certain items like the bullet bill which drives for you and the golden shrooms which give Perma boost.
Rubber banding is potentially a usable. In Mario Kart 64, it’s better to be in second unless you can consistently be extremely far ahead
If x factor is so broken why the enemy doesnt use it as well, or it's locked for the losing player?
13:22 Heihachi be enjoying the view
You didn't even talk about Chaos Mode in The Missing Link. Literally the most broken comeback mechanic I've ever seen
I’ve watched this video a few times, and I’m also one of the few who still plays BBTAG because I miss the series and I need to see my beloved Hazama constantly. But can we talk about Resonance Blaze? It encourages you to use partner skills, cross combos, bursts and all that good shit to give you a chance at F U N N Y I N S T A K I L L or allows you to do combos with a lot of supers (ex: Houtenjin juggles. Can you tell I’m a Hazama simp yet?). It’s also just a fun mechanic casually, and creates a lot of hype and tension. I’m not even good at Cross Tag! I mean, I’m obsessed with BlazBlue and have been hit by what I like to call Blue Syndrome, which is the lack of good canon BlazBlue content, but still. Anyways, obligatory rant that no one will read on a Leon Massey video. Have a good day.
And remember that the P in Mori P stands for “Please just give us another damn fighter, I beg.”
Over in Tekken Rage is the comeback mechanic. So why do we need Rage Arts? And the Rage Arts wouldn't even be all that bad it's supposed to have a complicated input but on consoles it's map to one button. They removed the skill it is just a robbery tool
oh dang you went to syndicate we might have seen eachother without realizing thats fuckin wild, small world
3:21
"from hyper competitive"
shows SFV
"to hyper casual*
shows Smash
Perfect.
One thing you overlooked about comeback mechanics as applied to fighting games: Unlike racing games, where being ahead doesn't give an inherent leg up, fighting games do, and it's well known and aptly named: "advantage state". When you're winning, you're not only inflicting damage, you're also cutting off your opponent's options. Like take the Mario Kart item boxes and reverse them, the player in the lead gets all the best items and the ones behind have to make do with what they get.
So a comeback mechanic can help to level this out, not by actively changing what advantage state means — that's an important part of fighting games, after all, and it feels really good to be immediately rewarded for finding an opening. But rather, you can provide alternate options for the player who is losing like special reversal buttons etc. so that, even though their character is being rendered helpless, they still have buttons they can press that do something.
I do think that simply upping stats is a lazy solution though. Similar to the "buff don't nerf" idea, granting bonus damage or health to the losing player is like giving frailty or impotence to the winning one. Instead, giving the losing player new options to use achieves the same goal of countering advantage state but in a way that allows for more play in the game, and hopefully even makes it a little fun to be in disadvantage as you can look for openings to use the tools you're gaining access to.
I think SFV's V-Trigger system, at least after every character got two, is a great comeback system in general. In the same game and many others is a mechanic I don't like, low-HP damage reduction.
The V-Skill system gives everyone some degree of personal expression with their character and V-Triggers give you more tools while still asking that you use them effectively. Ultras from SF4 were so lame in comparison, being just particularly damaging supers that could affect someone's playstyle but never felt like much more than a Blue Shell in terms of impact.
Low-HP Damage Reduction however I've never really understood. It attempts the same comeback quality by letting a player who's behind fight longer and so "barely survived" wins can look more impressive but once you notice it the magic is zapped out of the room. Why not just give the character effective HP equal to the reduction? They're just as durable and opponents don't feel weak while they chip away at someone who by all accounts is already dead.
I don't play fighting games other than smash melee but I commend the choice of pikmin music at the end of the video : )
What about the comeback mechanic in Street Fighter 4 where you gain ultra combo meter the more damage you take and you may gain the ultra combo at 50% health but the attack is piss poor damage wise compared to if you used it when at 10% where it does dummy thiccc with 3 Q's damage
Meanwhile Smash Bros has done this the worst.
Sm4sh introduced a comeback mechanic so bad that characters could take stocks at 0%. Ultimate tuned the mechanic down so it still provides a solid boost but not as ridiculous but it's still terrible because it benefits heavier characters way more as they live way longer and boosting their already strong kill power isn't a great idea.
And then they started giving characters there own personal comebacks mechanics that stack with the already universal one.
Local man getting assaulted gets up and assaults the man assaulting them even harder.
the entire section on tekken rage arts is so weird. you present 'just block' like it's some ridiculous suggestion but it's not at all. you DON'T need to guess if they're gonna rage art if you just use less committal pokes when your opponent is in rage. like you can poke jabs at someone and if you see the GIANT visual queue for a rage art you'll still have time to block. in a bunch of these clips you're throwing this unsafe committal shit at an opponent that probably could have died to a very easily hit confirmed 1 1 2 instead.
also some rage drives are kinda too good i don't disagree with that part but the entire text about hwoarang's rd can apply to an electric lmao
Loved seeing Trackmania here. Nice vid!
Bruh he really hate smash >.>
Blue shells are where Mario Kart fucked up, BAD. They don't help the people who get them; they just serve to fuck over whoever is in first. There is no feeling worse (in videogames) than losing a race you dominated just because some asshole got a blue shell.
I feel like round based comeback mechanics are the best type, both players will get it if the game is close and if its a stomp the winner didn’t need the comeback mechanic to begin with
Rage in Tekken 7 is an extremely fair mechanic when compared to how Mortal Kombat 11 completely gutted competitive play with combo breakers that punish the player that won neutral and 40% free damage with two buttons to the losing player.
Drs is rubberbanding in f1 change my mind
Nobody gonna talk about that super clean edit of SF4 Ryu shoryu that cuts to smash when he says hyper competitive vs hyper casual? Also, LMAO
basketball has a comeback mechanic with losers ball
I'll say it here: The blue shell is the worst comeback mechanic ever. It's worse than rubber banding. It's worse than anything else you can get, including other OP seeming items like bullet bill.
Because it does NOT help the one getting it, unless you nail the person in front of you with it. All it does is wreck the first player, aiming for them and only them. It offers no reasonable interaction between sender and receiver, and only punishes someone you won't see for doing well.
At least you can hit others with it now, but remember MK64 where it was also flying all the time? Now that's a really, really badly designed thing.
Edit: Wait no, it was flying in Double Dash and… This item may warrant a video all of its own.
Don't worry gamers, im taking my game design classes starting next week, i will make the most epic fighting game, there will be so much win, so much epic win. drust me, i am one of yuo!
: D
TBH there's a really easy fix for any of those mechanics, just allow it to be disabled or changed in the options.
In Smash Ultimate many casual players play with items and map hazards that can turn around a game in an instant, which can be fun, but truly unfair at points.
In pro matches they just turn them off.
The problem with comeback mechanics and beginner level mechanics will always exist no matter how they’re implemented; knowledge checks.
Everyone has a rage art in tekken 7 but if you’re opponent knows how to use Akumas for a TOD combo/close enough while you’re unaware Jin has a better rage drive than art players are gonna be even more frustrated because this mechanic that was supposed to make it so they had a fair chance is now being used to, in their eyes, steal a game they’re hard work went into in the blink of an eye.
X factor is the biggest example for this. To a casual it’ll make them feel like they’re putting up a fight when they lose two guys, but the minute someone uses it’s against them for a happy birthday TOD they no longer care. They don’t know how to do that. The mechanic that was made to make things more more forgiving for people without the knowledge to make big comeback combos is now being used to put them in a worse position than ever.
It’s an idea appealing to equity, but it can only work off the principle of equality, so now instead of little Timmy being given an opportunity to play the game more he’s been dunked into a situation where he’s losing even harder.
My issue with all anti comeback mechanic arguments is that both players have access to them. Its like spark in dbfz. Yeah lariat >lvl3 with limit spark broly does 80% but nothing is stopping you from playing limit spark broly. If casuals can win with it why can't you? I play teen gohan bardock broly. Be mad.
RIP old RJ
There is a mechanic in GTA V called "Catch-up" where the 1st player in a race will leave a trace of air. If another player is close behind them while this is happening, they will get a speed boost that let's them surpass them.
What I don't like about the comeback mechanic in Tekken 7 is that your opponent can have the option to use it in the match while you don't. Sometimes a Rage Art will KO you thru your own comeback mechanic simply because you had too much life to use it.
no matter what game they're in, be it racing or fighting, they're bullshit. they reward shitty players.
Comeback mechanics, when they are predictable, such as specific moves that become available at a specific low health, can be played around at high skill levels.
And the heavy swing potential makes for exciting esports. Justin vs Daigo is amazing for the comeback, and yes, it's actually the string of parries that make it intensely skilled, but those don't happen all the time and not every game has that parry potential. That style of comeback mechanic can make similar situations more common.
Hey bro wanna check out Initial D Arcade Stage's boost system? (Or something I forgot)
You know, the rage dilemma of tekken can be fixed very, very quickly with… a toggle. Yes, I'm suggesting for a toggle for a whole GAME MECHANIC but I think it would work.
no comeback mechanics are a band aid solution. Joe schmoe will still quit a game if he loses a bunch he won't stay just because it was close. it makes being better a detriment to your enjoyment.
Remember when people were considering playing Smash Ultimate with final smash meter turned on? What a disaster lol
Bait it..
Dbfz has the best version of x factor imo. They keep buffing it and it hasn't felt over the top yet. Think it has a lot to do with the game generally having weak mix.
I'm just waiting for the Walking Dead Stranger Things Game of Thrones fighting game. I'd ask for the Avengers, but Capcom owns Marvel.
I'm just waiting for the Walking Dead Stranger Things Game of Thrones fighting game. I'd ask for the Avengers, but Capcom owns Marvel.
I feel like there's one important thing to note about comeback mechanics.
When done poorly they don't treat players equally and the person losing is rewarded more than the person who is winning.
But the thing is that a game without comeback mechanics at all also wouldn't treat players equally but in the other direction. A player who is winning would need less effort to win now while the losing player would need more, they're not incentivized to push their lead at all or take any risks. Comebacks wouldn't happen unless there was some choking involved.
A comeback mechanic when done well is there to rebalance the flow of the game and make players require the same amount of effort at the end of a round as the start. If you were playing better at first, but then lapsed and started only play 'as' good as them then the game should ideally still end up close. It's not a reward for playing poorly, more so a reward for playing consistently.
I’m only halfway through the video so maybe he addresses this but the way he talks about comeback mechanics makes it sound like the higher skill-having player doesn’t also have access to the same mechanics. Before they lose to a player who made use of one, they’ll be able to use that mechanic as well – and, in theory, use it more effectively. I’m not even sure I agree with the entire underlying supposition of this video in that I don’t think that comeback mechanics in themselves are intrinsically necessarily intended to reduce the skill gap (again, even if the losing player reverses the course of the game, a higher skilled player will be able to use the same mechanic more effectively and reverse it back) as much as to avoid boring blowouts and to increase tension as the game reaches its climax.
What games was that @ 1.33?
Tekken is a perfect example of esports directly impacting the mechanics of the game itself. Rage drives were definately added, along with rage arts, for the casuals and specators, but its much worse. It's a mechanic that wasn't added to add the small possibility of a comeback but added specifically to create and encourage comebacks. Just like v-triggers, a rage drive can singlehandedly influence your characters entire viability at high levels.
I disagree about your take on X-Factor, and instead think it’s more in line with how you described Hell Fire, as high level play sees both players using it wisely as an asset in their kit (if at all) rather than a game ender since pro play turns into ToD: The Game, regardless of XF
I'm a casual fighting game fan, but I think MK did a pretty good job with the comeback mechanic with the X-Ray system. Casual players rarely spend meter on attacks/combo breakers, and getting an attack that deals 30%+ damage can turn the tide of the match, while also looking cool.