Castle Super Beast Clips: 120 FPS Fighting Games
WoolieVersus
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08.06.2022
Alot of companies are greedy and slow to adapt new technology, GGPO/Rollback netcode is literally the cure for the cancer that is online fighting games yet, here we are. These companies will bury their heads in the sand until they suffocate and go under, or they will get with the times.
2020 Was the wakeup call anyone still lagging behind at this point is just stuck in the past.
What was the name of Pat's capture device?
It's the same as KI I would imagine. KI runs at like 120 – 144 iirc, but it's only so the online runs well.
Again 20 seconds off absolutely zero sound is incredibly uncomfortable. You have your preshow music slap that in there, comon.
It might be worth mentioning that Power Rangers on PC can run 120+ apparently.
Between that and load times, I anxiously wait what, if anything, next gen fighters bring to the table.
This is my first time seeing Gief since the first picture pat posted of him
OH HE BIG NOW
I think woolie was talking about motorstorm apocalypse, that game has 3d support for some unknown reason
wouldn't the frame data be the same? like a 4 frame would just be 8 frame. like the visuals would be smoother on the front end but the back end would be functionally the same. right?
Man when something is using Parsec you KNOW it’s shit, because Parsec netcode isn’t even like, impressive. For games like Xrd it’s actually just worse, but stuff like MvC3 has such awful netcode people treat “We can play the game in 5f delay!” as the holy grail lmao
Boomer with small eyes
Woolie is super tired of that discussipn but I will forever love to hate and complain abojt fighting game devs making new gimmicks and doing shit barely anyone cares for while blatantly ignoring what everyone is screamong about.
Fucking 3D support. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why you don't buy TVs until a gimmick like 3D really takes off. I remember maybe two games and the blu-ray of Avatar supporting 3D TVs and not much else.
As long as we're talking about TV gimmicks, curved TVs are and always have been stupid. You're not gonna get the IMAX experience they touted at home because no one has a 50 ft screen at home. Curved TVs just make you look like a selfish dork who wants less people at a certain angle to enjoy what you're watching.
Soooo why not use an atomos? Set it to prores Lt for space storage and you should be able to make it work with most of these setups. I'm a film guy and use it for on set work. It isn't a super cheap setup but for a workhorse solution it should fit the bill.
Guilty gear @ 4K 144hz 10bit color & HDR.
>144hz is overrated
says man that exclusively plays with a controller
the future of fighting games is still behind popular online games from the early 2000s with playable online, great.
I love this topic so I'm about to drop an essay on it lol
TLDR: Fighting games use different "timesteps" for their game simulation code.
People don't necessarily need any new hardware, provided games are designed and optimized for it.
Faster timesteps ought to provide a tangible benefit to input responsiveness in most situations.
New hardware will also provide benefits to input responsivess too.
Classic games use a fixed 60hz display frame rate for their timestep. They simulate in 1/60th of a second, and then present you the image rendered from the simulation. 60 times a second.
More modern games decouple their simulation and presentation of rendered images. I think there's more than a couple of existing games that use 90hz or 120hz for their timesteps, like Killer Instinct? The game will simulate as many frames as it wants invisibly, without actually drawing an image using graphics computation, and then only render the latest simulation to show to the user. So Pats correct about not needing a new monitor to play any "120 fps" fighting games.
As far as benefits go, there should be a couple. If the player's input is sampled from the controller as late as possible, it'll reduce the input delay from a maximum of 1/60th of a second, 16 ms, to 8 ms. TVs and monitors "input" latency have a range from ~10ms to 40ms, so it's a measurable difference. That's about the best case scenario you can expect for the general hardware and displays people have today. The more ms you can save the better, since you're only adding more of a delay over the net.
The problem is simulating the game fast enough to match a 120hz timestep. Injustice's dev team did a video on the topic with regards to netcode, and I'll link it at the end. Their old engine code was pretty dated, and couldn't take advantage of the amount of processing power consoles have "today", which was a few years ago at this point.
This meant they could not simulate the game fast enough to implement rollback. Rollback literally "rolls back" and simulates a number of old frames, and then presets a single new frame that's caught up with the time. So a game has to not only be able to simulate in 1/120th of a second, but also do so up to as many times as necessary to cover desynchonizations in netplay. That's like (1/120)/8, or about 1 millisecond, for all game impacting logic to be fully simulated and completed. It's doable, but with games as heavy as they are today, running on third party engines without complete control over the game state, it's a pretty hard ask. It's also common for game engines to have a coupled timestep simulation and presentation. I know unity does it by default. Knowing all this, you can imagine the friction you'll get from asking a studio from Japan to overhaul their in house code to not only decouple simulation from rendering, but also speed it up to get it under a few milliseconds.
Also, "120 fps" isn't the limit. PCs can take advantage of even higher refresh rates, and extra hardware and software features. Running games without v sync will reduce the number of frames buffered to prevent tearing. You'll normally end up with screen tear though. But with G-Sync or Freesync, you'll prevent tearing and present the image to the user literally as soon as it's done rendering. Nvidia has some neat latency measuring tech that you could use to measure exactly how long it takes for a game to simulate and send you a new image. So even though these technologies are for "varying refresh rates" and "preventing screen tearing", there's other benefits. New TVs, like last year's LG CX, have implemented the latest HDMI specification, which includes VRR, variable refresh rate. Consumers ought to have this hdmi equivilant of freesync and g-sync in their houses as more TVs are sold over time.
The GDC talk on Injustice 2 and Mortal Kombat's rollback implementation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jb0FOcImdg
Why call the Xbox Series X for XX when you can call it the Triple X? Or XXX if you will. Since it has 3 Xs.
Idk I feel like we should keep the 60fps and keep the timing the same, like everything inside of me is screaming that 120fps fighting games are wrong
The concept of 120 FPS is so fucking ridiculous to me because 60 isn't even an industry standard yet
So I fully expect the 120fps game to have a 60hz input buffer to make it compatible with both modes. Probably won’t get much benefit out of anything but smoother animation(where applicable, since some animations already imitate sprites and are lower than 60fps) it would need to be built on 120hz from the ground up I believe
So, this is gonna sound weird but…I bet the netcode would actually be WORSE at 120 FPS. Just due to the way fighters and even GGPO work. PLEASE remember that netcode is handled differently for different genres and with fighting games, every frame matters so 120 FPS might mean twice as much data that has to be sent twice as fast. MIGHT. That's some uncharted territory but just because it works for first person shooters and racing games doesn't mean it will for fighting games.
Pat saying 144hz is overrated sounds like when someone says 60hz is overrated compared to 30hz. You can feel the difference immediately. What a wildly ignorant statement.
This is dumb. Given that the game is getting a 120hz upgrade, I can guaran-fucking-tee you what they've done is disconnect the game physics from the rendering, are running physics at a ticrate of 60, and then lerping the extra frames. You will get smoother visuals, but there will not be a substantive change in inputs. I severely doubt that SNK would pony up to do anything else, which would be complex and expensive.
11:16 Insert "WHAT? WHAT THE FUCK?" sound effects here.
120/144 Hz is nice but it really is a luxury, just to see smooth animations look even smoother.
IMO any advancement in fighting game tech is completely worthless until good online becomes standardized across the board
I will keep losing, since I'm bad anyway xD
Pat is the most right he has ever been on this one. Can we just not have dips and have a rock solid frame rate and never goes below 30 at its worst.
The only flaw, I can think of, in Woolie’s logic on parsec is that it will give all multiplayer game developers an excuse not to work on the online for any PC games or ports to any games. They’ll just cite “they’ll just use parsec,” as an excuse.
In my limited experience with this topic, and how varied human perception of "frames" are, I'm on the argument that any benefits between 60 and 120 FPS is MUCH, MUCH LOWER than what you'd get between 30 and 60 FPS.
For example, running For Honor on base PS4 is a much different experience than going to the PS5. Those extra frames have a very real impact on your gameplay. However, your personal skill will only benefit so much as the frames get larger. Now there IS a difference between 120 and 60, but it's like the difference between 1080p and 1440p; it's THERE, but you'd have to look real careful to see it.
In a fast-paced match, most players aren't going to spot much difference in game-feel between these two frame benchmarks. It's much more important to have low latency and consistent frames than higher ones.
I'm with Pat on this one. 120 fps is just a gimmick until fighting games solve their actual problem of bad netcode. I've been saying the fps floor should be raised for games in general forever too, it's crazy how games want to flaunt their 4k ability, but can't run at 60fps. The jump from 30 to 60 is more noticable than 60 to 120.
You literally have to be on COCAINE to Significantly "Feel" the difference between 120 frames and 60 frames.
Aren't there any good hdmi splitters? You don't need to compromise image quality/responsiveness on account of recording then
Curved tvs actually did get adopted pretty heavily. They're pretty normal nowadays.
“Instead if raising the ceiling, I’d like to raise the floor.” Coolest, most logical thing Pat said in a minute
3:54 – I like how the stream lagged right then and there.
Oh I remember when fgc vets were crying like babies when people told them to switch to server side connection and clung to Peer to peer connection like a slug .
2020 – using parsec A SERVER SIDE CONNECTION SERVICE to play fighting games because the P2P connection service it offers is shit. Like poetry, it rhymes…
Clip begins with pat not even on the video. Genuinely funny.
Fighting games have now evolved enough to encounter problems every other genre encountered and solved in the year 2000.
Treating parsec as a solution for everything is a mistake ,need to keep that pressure on game companies to implement good rollback
maybe i'm dumb but wouldnt they just double the frame data?
the silent intro makes me think my headphones or audio is broken every time
SamSho: We can push 120 FPS!
Me: But…you could've used that effort to put in rollback. It's literally FREE.
SamSho: Nah, mate, we gotta appease the 12 people that go beyond 60 FPS!
Me: THIS IS FOR THE CONSOLE VERSION, NO ONE CARES OUTSIDE OF PC Alright whatever, imma go back to Power Rangers having almost zero delay across continents across consoles with cable-less WiFi.
Also wait a minute, they'll use the excuse of "It's not made in Japan" for rollback, but they'll make a 120 FPS mode on Xbox when
A. Japan doesn't care about going that high and more importantly
B. JAPAN DOESN'T LIKE THE XBOX.
Fix your shitty netcode before even bringing up higher fps, fighting game devs.
I like the part where Pat held the baby
but, but, but guys… the competition talk aside, time-delta-based frame-rate-independent game "tick" was invented and implemented in various game engines a decade ago! but yeah, I get it "it's been years now"
“Can we see this going forward?”
No, SamSho while looking fine isn’t pushing a lot in terms of graphics so I doubt 120 is going to a thing for a long while, the much more possible future is much nicer fighting games running at 60
You can shoot for 120 but if it ain’t locked at 120 and drops to like 50fps in parts then what’s the point?? If your game only hits 120 when I’m walking like a turtle only glancing at the “120fps approved” portions of your game and the rest of your game is 120fps-ish then it’s a crapshoot
I love that this whole convo is happening while the stream is DROPPING FRAMES
God dang Zangief became a chonk! But still very adorable