Are Projectiles Cheap In Fighting Games? -

Are Projectiles Cheap In Fighting Games?

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Like: 99

Why do Projectiles make Fighting Games cool? And why do we like cheap stuff? Find out here!

0:00:00 Projectiles Are Amazing
0:05:45 People Want Cheap Characters

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James Chen

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  1. Strange question because Clayton keep throwing you under the bus.Whats the go with him is he just some salty dude high on his ego or is he actually a secret god that holds the community together and forms the meta in almost every game like he claims.He said you where the one saying it in one of his recent videos.I see a lot but hate for him around the community.Is he just misunderstood because he comes across as very toxic at times or is he actually just full of it.

  2. As I said: don't nerf Blanka. Buff Kimberly.

  3. Was pumped hearing you on TNS UMVC3, but sad you didn't get to witness a live Tony Kila performance

  4. Instant like for projectile propaganda.

  5. Goddamn James, hearing this from you just boosted my respect and appreciation for you x10,000. I hate how modern fighting game design doesn't appreciate the necessity for cheap/dirty design. Like people forgot, the original strategy in SFII was spamming Hadouken and Sonic Boom.

  6. Damn straight James, buff Ryus fireball Capcom.

  7. Bruh that thumbnail XD
    You barely dodged that sonic boom, and it cut off your hair !

  8. I want to go back to the point of Super Turbo and change how things progressed (since it is STILL one of the two main models). TLDR: Fireballs were made weaker, pushback for blocking was made weaker, and everyone who doesn't have a fireball was given a move they can use that allows them to IGNORE the fireball and just go in anyway. I hate that. The original reason for a fireball was to have "meaningful combat across the screen," so the real question is, did we ever achieve that?

    Now, from Vampire Savior (the second model still used) which leads to MvC2 at that point we can say YES, there is meaningful combat across the entire screen, but because of the mobility that made this possible fireballs were less powerful by default. I would argue the Street Fighter model NEVER did so for two reasons: 1) fireball vs fireball characters tend to just cancel each other out, 2) non fireball players either don't have the tools they need to have to deal with them, or they are given tools that just allow them to ignore the fireball.

    To solve the first problem, each of your fireballs is assigned a color based on strength of the button (Light: Green, Medium: Yellow, Heavy: Red) and now have a rock/paper/scissors relationship with each other. Two of the same kind will cancel each other out. A few archtypes would not function this way and would cancel each other out like normal. First, the Dhalsim like zoner to force the shotos to have to move in to deal damage; if anyone should feel spammy it should be the zoner. Second, any charge fireballs that cannot be spammed would be exempt from this and function like you'd expect (you keep the beauty of the Ryu vs Guile matchup).

    As for the second major problem, the non fireball players just need more approach options and you are looking for rock/paper/scissors relationships again. Blocking in the air and more air grabs is a simple addition you see in a lot of games. So instead of DP beating everything you could block and bait it out to punish, but if they are blocking in the air they are open to an air throw. We see many of the faster or rush down characters have a way to go either over or under a fireball, and depending on spacing and timing the person who threw the fireball can punish the attempt… if you couldn't you didn't have enough time and shouldn't have thrown the fireball.

    We could also go further and allow some risk vs reward to deal with the strong pushback from blocking. As an example, you could take the "just" or "instant" block mechanics you see in some games which would allow you to lose less ground and recover faster (and probably generate meter). Starting with Vampire Savior we see some characters who can use a move to absorb projectiles; as long as this mechanic is dynamic (for instance if you can be punished with a jump in just like throwing a fireball can based on the spacing and timing) then you can have multiple options that would create counters. If they try the jump in, you could just neutral jump and hit them with an air to air; if they jump forward and block to counter you can air throw. Another option is to require them to do a special move with the right button to counter the color just like the fireball characters have to do.

    We KNOW projectile characters feel great with the ST model, we just have to take a different approach to giving tools to the characters that have to get in that ADD options which require you to respond correctly to your opponent instead of reducing them by being able to ignore your opponent. Neutral skips are fun but it isn't much interaction and lacks depth. I want beautifully balanced core mechanics and the cheap stuff thrown on top.

  9. i have nothing against projectiles except for Sonic Boom, Guile is my banned character always in SF6

  10. The parry system definitely negates projectile spam in 6. That and people just drive rush into your face all day endlessly

  11. Dnf duel characters are absolutely broken and i think its one of the most lame boring anime fighters in a minute. As a DFO head they dropped the ball so hard. Watching 2 touch of death games are never exciting to me.

  12. Going to say something controversial…projectile-less character matches in SF are the best. Projectiles are the standard in SF games, hence the apathy. Thankfully there are other games!

    Been playing SF since 93, i had to switch and play Power Quest (ironically made by Capcom in JP) because of the projectile apathy in SF. If you tire of games like SF and projectiles, try another fighter. Create a community, there are so many more games our here (and this is coming from a Capcom lifer!)

  13. I can't play with character without a fireball
    Fireball makes me comfortable

  14. I thin games where projectiles are really over centralising can feel kinda boring, I feel that there's a market for games like that but that's not really what I want out of traditional fighters, but I do like projectiles in games where they do genuinely feel like rounded parts of character's kits. I love the gbvsr fireballs for isntance a lot of characters have unique twists tied to theirs that lets them all feel distinct and have unique purposes and response, but the gmae also has a lot of answers to projectiles such that you have to engage with a much wider array of systems than like, I throw booms from 2/3 and jamie starts crying.

  15. projectiles are cool as hell in 2d games, as are anti airs, whether its dps or air throws in anime games. they're responsible for most of the depth in the neutral of 2d fighting games. it's the equivalent of 3d movement in 3d games.

  16. Hearing James talk about how cheap characters can make fighting games more interesting makes me think about boxing games or MMA games. They are definitely not “balanced” considering the real world fighters are all different people and they definitely have different strengths and weaknesses as well as there being some who are clearly better than others and probably 1-3 who are obviously “top tier” and above everybody else.

  17. Projectiles definitely make a fighting game a million times more interesting if implemented well! I feel SF4 got it perfect.

  18. I would say people definitely hate zoners more than grapplers. Even from a spectator's point of view, you can get the David VS Goliath battle with a grapple character.

    But with zoners, people would just think that you're being cheap, which can seem uninteresting to those without knowing the nuances.

  19. As we used to say back in the day, SF3 series could be played in a phonebooth. And no, not everyone loves Third Strike. And absolutely not everyone likes fighting Yun/Chun in 3S. Let's not re-write history here. True, Ibuki/Akuma in 2I was worse, but those two characters can die in a fire (but you can't remove them, since that would just make Ken/Makoto the new top tier).

    Gotta disagree with James about projectile in SF6, though. THey're generally good , and Ryu's own IS a threat. Play GIef and have Ryu toss 189061981298 FBs at mid-range, backing off appropriately to re-establish space. This is the one tactic I've yet to figure a way around. They recover too fast. Parrying gains no ground. PP at close range might be fast enough if you dash and hit him, but I when I try that I run into EX FB right after and get clipped. In fact, EX Fireball stops all ground offense – Gief DI doesn't go far enough to hit him, charged HP only has one hit-armour and thus loses, s.MP will get beat outright and also loses (land doesn't do enough damage on trade with regular FB to dissuade Ryu from spamming them). Lariat is too slow and doesn't hit Ryu at the range he's stoning you anyway.

    So yeah. Ryu could still use a few buff but buffing his projectile is NOT one of them. Let him keep his projectile while has Deijin Charge, but his projectiles are a menace enough as is if you aren't a top tier character.

    I think projectiles overall in SF6 are in a good spot. I just wish I could block them at close range like I could in _any other fighter_. Does SF6 have delay blocking a la SFA2?

    Concerning cheap characters in fighters.. Eh. There are levels of cheap, and everyone's threshold is different. What you really want to acknowledge is that balance is overrated. I've been saying this since the 90s. Variety is what you want. Variety > Balance. Unless if you make clones of characters a la SF1 Ryu/Ken, tiers will always exist. You will always find some characters who are stronger than others. As long as decent number of different characters are on top, and the gap between top and bottom isn't too low/the bottom characters can compete, that's as good as you're going to have it.

    Again, I think SF6 is in a really good spot here. Not that I don't think low tiers don't need buffs (buff GIef!) or that the top tiers don't need to be reined in a tad, but they're already have a very, very good base to start with. Nothing egregious outside of Luke (and a lesser extent Ken) being a little too good for their archetype.

    BTW, "everyone being cheap" isn't necessarily a good thing. Samurai Shodown 3 is an example wherever everyone is goddamn cheap but the game isn't good.

  20. I wanted to share that Ryu/Guile is also one of my all-time favorite fighting game matchups!

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