2D vs 3D | Exploring Fighting Games 16
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Dude you really created a godlike channel, sucks that true critical thinking is getting less popular these days
2D ez wins
Saga frontier ost finally getting the love it deserves
This would have been so helpful when I was first trying to pick up Tekken lol. No one tells you this kind of stuff. Glad to see you guys putting out this kind of content 🙂
As someone who dabbles in a 3D game every once in a while, this really helped me visualize the articulate differences, and put it into words. Great job!
In most 3D fighters there's also a focus on space. Whether it be Tekken's walls or Soul Calibur's ringout.
Maps with walls/wall breaks can drasticly change matchup balance. While it tends to be more about space awareness rather than space control, it's still a very prominent thing. Walls will kill your movement options, but character moves will also do the same. E.g. Dragunov runing 2 and Kazumi running 2 are great for controlling vertical space, Dragunov d2 and most homing moves are great for controlling sidewards movement.
While Tekken is a game about risk/reward more than most fighting games, it's also about covering as many options as possible, where space tends the be the focus in this aspect.
Lol I was fighting my bro in SF 2 hyper fighting (SNES) with Balrog (me) vs Chun Li (my bro) and I found out I can get through Chun Li lightning kicks by trying to go to the far back away to charge my heavy straight punch which the fist get through the kick.
Good video. Can't wait for the next episode 😍.
Love the Saga Frontier music guys!
good info, but what i don't get about these 3d fighting game videos is WHY things are like this
like sure, maybe tekken doesn't have many projectiles, but is that really a consequence of having a 3d fighting game, or is it just tekken?
Interesting to think of time and space as concepts. I've been playing both 2D and 3D fighters since the beginning. (2D a bit more competitively)
Time w/frame advantage/disadvantage is important, with knowing when it's your turn to attack after blocking. Solid vid. 🙂
there's one thing though. i can't help but feel like the focus on controlling time in tekken is mainly just a factor of the way movement is arranged. The game starts in close range, moving forward tends to be more than twice as fast as moving backward, and the fact that there's no throws makes keep-out less of a priority. I say there's no throws because in tekken throws are techable on reaction(it's not a difficult reaction) in addition to duckable and steppable. on top of that, most of the time pokes with good range or frame data tend to be steppable.
i find it curious that we're saying 2d & 3d instead of just tekken and street fighter(and other capcom-family/capcom-ripoff games) i assume virtua fighter operates at similar ranges to tekken, but the point is, a 3d version of street fighter where most everything is the same except its got a z-axis and sidestepping would be a pretty functional game. On the other hand, a game with tekken-like flow would be pretty doable in 2d, though removing sidestepping would make buttons a lot better and safer.
By this principle third strike is a 3d fighting game.
I like the idea of this video a lot. I think the idea of fighting for time in 3d fighters mostly just applies to tekken where turtleing and defense are really strong. In VF, fighting for space is a priority because of ring outs and overall faster offensive options. Also, waiting for your turn is more pronounced in tekken than VF.
Good shit as always.
While you make a lot of good analysis regarding spacing and finding the optimal range for your character in 2D games, all of those concepts are similarly important in 3D games – even the point about playing neutral at various ranges until you begin your turn. E.g. King in Tekken prefers being 1-2 backdashes away in neutral, but if he lands a hit and gets momentum going (has his turn) has a very threatening poking and throw game at range 0.
Additionally, the crush system and evasion are an important source of complexity that is definitely space-oriented, and completely left out of the video.
If anything, it's not the focus on space vs time that makes 2D and 3D different, but the ways in which space and time are applied in a mechanical sense.
You mention that in melty blood, the neutral phase is mainly played in the air. Can the same be applied to aracana heart and dragon ball fighterz as you fly around just (if not more) as much?
I strongly disagree about having no options from far apart in Tekken. This is all about getting positioning, trying to get your opponent up against the wall or yourself away from it.
Yeah. And because of this I like Crucis Fatal Fake, that utilize all 3 dimensions. It's a doujinshi fighting game on Fate series. The game plays like 2D-fighting game with jumps, air dashes and double jumps. But also you can do a sidestep and it's essential in this game as jumping.
I want a big fighting game like this, actually.
im in a big need of the next video.
how about one where you talk how to analise matches?
Well, thought about what's the difference, so thanks for putting thoughts to words 🙂
I'm getting the same Tekken-specific vibe from this as ProblenSkater's recent videos on "3D Fighters"…. Not really feeling how Virtua Fighter's system falls under this umbrella, besides the golf ball part and Y-axis point. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean about controlling "time"? Trends in punishing don't seem to fit the same package at least
I've heard of the space vs time thing before and it always interested me. Enjoyed the video. In my personal experience, I started with 3D fighters mostly, but then moved to Street Fighter for years. I find that when I currently play 3D fighters, I now put a lot of emphasis on movement and knowing my best range pokes. A few characters specifically would be Jin Kazama and Jean Kujo in their respective games. Both have excellent range to utilize, which I may have slept on back then. When combined with proper movement, it may not be as strong as winning the time battle, but it certainly makes an impact that has strengthened my gameplay. (Feels lame to admit, but I couldn't beat Eddy players until I started zoning them out…but I'm not trying to be a pro tekken player or anything).
Got a link to Viscant's old post? Can't find it anymore in the new forum software.
3d games have very steep learning curve, but very rewarding upon mastery. 2d games is more appealing to casuals with it's spamming attacks and the one bottom specials.
and that's why the last fighting game I played was Naruto ninja storm 4. None of this 20 plus combos bullcrap. 90% of people buy games like MKX for the hype and play casual matches with friends. Their skill level will be bellow average at best because of the learning curve.
Can't wait for Jump Force to come out and play something fun instead of l33t 2d fighting games that require the training regimen needed to reach the 10 dan black belt in karate.
Thanks for the video man, there are so many of us who grew up with fighting games but are just so unaware of the differences between the two types of fighters…I've actually always like 3d fighters but not really known why. That being said they might as well be night and day, they are both so different that to even say oh I prefer one or the other is silly because they are both so different. One isn't necessarily better, you can like both and the all the different games within each…
What's the intro song called?
For all guys who think „tekken is all about spacing what is he talking about? He is absolutely right bcs he means its about controlling momentum, or do you ever won s match in tekken by only good spacing? No with the spacing you want to creat good momentum „time“ and frames play in this game a big role too what is sidesteppable and what not what is punishable.
Could you make an episode about what makes each 3d fighting game notably different from one another please? I've grown curious about 3d fighting games lately but most of the information I can find is just about Tekken or Soul Calibur but franchises like DoA, Virtua Fighter or even forgotten franchises like Bloody Roar or early Tekken games have very little information online about the nuance that makes them unique from other 3d fighters aside from a basic rundown on their mechanics.
To a deeper degree than just "DoA is Virtua Fighter with a parry button and stage hazards" for example
2D all day 3D suck
2:30 Not in MK. In MK it's 10 balls in each jar.
Thank you for the insightful study. What bothers me is how much more varied and stylistic 2D fighters are in regards to their art and animation. I got a feeling it's got to do with how some of these moves are Visually read in a 2D game and a 3D game. Like when a character gets a launch in Tekken, the opponent is flipping around in the air like a fish out of water… so odd and stiff too. Not to say that 2D games do not have odd animations (MK, injustice…) Sorry if this comment is a little tangential.
THIS IS WHAT I'VE ALWAYS BEEN SAYING
"3D" Fighting games are really just 2D fighting on the horizontal plane. If they want real 3D fighting, look at Dissidia.
I feel like a lot of this stuff isnt really inherent to 3D. For example, the pressure sequence and taking your turn in tekken- it's not some result of the sidestep and Z-axis. It's a result of most moves being minus and reversal buttons being so strong. If you made most mids plus, and made attacks like magic 4s, jabs, reversal mids ect worse by being easily spaced out of/ punished on whiff of interrupted, the pressure game would look a lot more like 2D pressure sequences. Same goes the other way, If you made reversal buttons really strong and most attacks minus on block, I think a 2ds games pressure would look a lot like Tekken.
Likewise, when characters are far range in Tekken using strong keepout moves, it usually requires a commitment to beat, like a sidestep.
I think the risk of keepout move and sidestep has a similar risk to fireball jump.
So what do you think is better, 3D games or 2D games?
1. 3D waiting you turn (time)?
All fighting games engines are built on frame data, hit boxes, damage. Light, Medium, and Heavy Kick or Punches are built around time. Even 2d games that don't use those words have those buttons, 3D skips that and go right into frame data. When close frame time decides who wins in both games. The only time that's a problem is when projectile spam-combo-retreat is not a option.
2. 3D has no far options?
In Tekken which is used, all far options end in knockdown which leads to okizeme.
3. 3D range is less important?
All 3D fighters have a ranged character like Ivy. It less obvious because they don't have a whip sword. Jacks is best at a certain range, his close options aren't great.
4. 3D losses Height dimension?
SF has 6 air neutrals Tekken has 4 not counting ground to air moves, which 3D fighters have.
Can 3D fighters retreat-projectile spam from the air? no… no you can't
Damn this is really good stuff